Re: [tied] Re: Six, -ts- > -ks-

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:41:31 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:31:27 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >1) Portuguese has /-us^/ for the spelling <-os>.
>>
>> Which Portuguese? Not Galician/Northern Portuguese or Brazilian
>Portuguese
>> (except Carioca).
>
>Let me clarify: some Portuguese. Happy now?

Well, I also wanted to add that the phenomenon in Portuguese is not limited
to -os, but affects final and preconsonantal /s/ after any vowel, but
Marius I. has already said that.

>>And how is a modern (post 17th c.) Portuguese
>> development relevant to medieval spelling?
>>
>
>And you have ironclad evidence that it didn't occur before that?
>Lately I've come across many passages in linguistic literature in
>which the author claims that the late appearance of some feature is
>caused by its having to work its way up from the subjugated popular
>deep. What am I to make of that?

Let's assume the subjugated popular deep in Portugal had been pronouncing
-us^ for centuries, unnoticed by the elite and unrecorded in writing (so
still no relevance to medieval spelling!). Now is there a scenario which
would have resulted in the situation as we have it now, with -us^ in
Portugal, -us in Brazil (except in the --former-- capital Rio)? Yeah: a
scenario where the whole elite of Portugal emigrated en bloc to Brazil,
leaving the subjugated popular deep in charge of Portugal (from where -s^
then spread to Rio). Of course that was not the way Brazil was populated,
rather the opposite, in fact.

>> >I think it would be strange for French final /s/'s to disappear
>> >abruptly.
>>
>> It didn't. It disappeared first before a voiced consonant (by way
>of s > z
>> > D > 0), then (11th. c) before voiceless consonants (by way
>of /h/),
>> finally (13th. c.) in final position,
>
>Daintily steppping over the /s^/-puddle.

/s/ > /h/, no need for /s^/.

>>except in liaison, where it survives
>> until today (as /z/, of course, not as /z^/).
>
>Oh! The final blow. But I don't think /s/ > /s^/ would force /z/
>> /z^/.

It does in Portuguese.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...