Re: Romanian -Albanian Genetic Link ( c /ts/ - story)

Hello Abdullah,
I want to thanks you a lot for your clarifications.

Please tell me also, if possible:

1. Could you help me with some Latin Loans in Albanians that should
give in Romanian a c /ts/ (in Romanian c is expecially a reflex of
Lat. "tia" or "tiu")
In order to check the stability of alb. "t-" (or the apparition
of an "-s") in these loans.

2. When and in what conditions /f/ > /th/ appears in Albanian ?

3. alb. thump - (rom. ciump) is correct or a typo too?

Thanks again,
marius alexandru

P.S. : a) alb. thumbullë - is the spelling used by Rosetti in ILR
II. Thanks for the correction.
b) for Alb. <pësoj> we have in romanian : p~aTi (only for
information)


--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<a_konushevci@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"

<alexandru_mg3@...>

> wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Lat. ti/te -> Alb. ti/t- (ti is stable)
> > ----------------------------------------
> > capitina -> kaptinë (see. Rom c~ap~at,^in~a )
> > inglutire -> gëlltis (see. Rom ^inghit,i )
> [AK]
> By all chances, Alb. <gëlltis> 'to swallow', present only in south
> dialect, is a Slavic loan, probably of Bulg. <g<am> 'id.'
> About second word <kaptinë> 'head, chapter, peak',
> <kaptell> 'pomell', <kaptoj> 'to pass over s.th., to jump' I doubt
> that here we have to deal much more with inherited word, suffixed

in -

> ina, -ell, -onj.
> >
> > (I tried to put here words that exists also in Romanian)
> >
> >
> > b) Type 2 of Latin loans (t+1):
> > Lat. ti /te -> Alb. c > s
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Lat. palatium -> Alb. pëllas (thanks to Alex)
> > Lat. patire -> Alb. psoj
> > Lat. servitium -> Alb. shërbesë
> > Lat. vitium -> Alb. ves
> > Lat. ratione -> Alb. arsye
> > Lat. puteu -> Alb. pus
> [AK]
> Lat. patior 'to suffer' > Alb. <pësoj> 'id.' is very suspicious,
> because, we have a prefixed form pë-soj (cf. pë-shurr 'to piss, to
> urinate', deverbative of <shurrë< 'urine', pë-shtyj 'to spit',
> shtyj 'to push'), besides mësoj 'to learn', a prefixal derivative

of

> pësoj, probably of Greek origine <manthano> 'id.'
> <shërbesë> is denominal of <shërbenj> from Lat. servio, -ire,

through

> bilabialization of the vowel, like in salvo, -are > shëlboj 'to
> liberate', but <shëlbyes> 'Salvator, Liberator'.
>
> >
> > As expected (see /3/ case) this shows us the same reflexe

of

> c
> > as for Romanian but on another axes c^ -> c -> s, where a /c/
> exists
> > at the 'next' moment of time.
> >
> > So I localized this second type of loans on the 't+1 moment' (d-
> > period) of the axes *k'w or k'W ( at that moment the 2 axes have
> > already merged):
> >
> > a b c | d | e
> > --- --- ---- ------ ---
> > *k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> > *kW /+ > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> >
> > This also fit very well my assumptions.
> >
> > NOTE : the periodization between different transformations

is

> > not yet established...
> >
> > Conclusion : the c reflexes in Latin Loans verifies again

(as

> > in case of /3/) the assumption : that Romanian and Albanian

derived

> > from a Common Language.
> >
> > PIE Common Language Albanian
> > *k^ ---*c'------- *c ------------------> T / t
> > | Romanian
> > ----- c --------- c
> >
> > Also it verifies the observation that the Romanization of
> > Romanians start earlier than the Romanization of Albanians.
> >
> >
> > 3.a Albanian and Romanian common words that reflect the Alb.
> T /th/
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------

--

> > I will check the conclusion above on the Albanian-Romanian
> common
> > words:
> >
> > The reflexes of Albanian T (th) - are the following in

Romanian

> > (see Rosseti ILR II):
> > 1. rom. t, /c/ <-> th /T/
> > 2. rom. s /s/ <-> th /T/
> > 3. rom. ci /c^/ <-> th /T/
> > 4. rom. f /f/ <-> th /T/
> >
> >
> > 1. rom. c /t,/ <-> alb. T /th/
> > ---------------------------
> > t,eap~a <-> thep
> > t,arc <-> thark
> >
> > This fit once again the conclusion above (see Latin

loans):

> >
> > PIE Common Language Albanian
> > *k' ---- c' ------ c ---- ------> T ----> T /t
> > | Romanian
> > --- c --- c
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > marius alexandru
> >
> >
> >
> > P.S. : the other Albanian-Romanian common words that reflect Alb.

T

> > have to be explained by other rules :
> >
> > 2. rom. s <-> alb. th (reflect the transformation of a PIE *sw
> > based on the correspondances of rom.s <-> alb. th, as in :
> >
> > a) rom. s^ambure <-> alb. thumbullë (AlbRom. Common
> > Language *sumbure)
>
> [AK]
> I am not aware of any <thumbull>. Probably typo for Alb.
> <sumbull> 'button, tinsel, bud'.
>
> >
> > b) rom. cursa <-> alb. kurthë (AlbRom. Common
> > Language *cursua )
> >
> > c) rom. sarb~ad <-> alb. i tharbëd (AlbRom. Common
> > Language *suarb- )
> >
> > (note : rom. sarb~ad != rom. searb~ad)
> >
> > 3. rom. c^ /ci/ <-> alb. T /th/
> >
> > As in :
> > rom. ciump <-> alb. thump
> >
> > Still unexplained, based on the Piotr transformations:
> >
> > It reflects a transformation :
> > ? -> c^ -> c -> T (in Albanian)
> > c^ -> c^ -> c^ (in Romanian )
> > starting from a common c^.
> >
> > but I cannot say more or to arrive to the PIE.
> >
> >
> > 4. rom. f <-> alb. th
> >
> > rom. f~ar^am~a <-> alb. thërime
>
> In Alb. <thërrime>, an expressive plural, we have a change /f/
> > /th/, like in <thëmijë>, besides <fëmijë> from Lat. <familia>.
>
> Konushevci