Re: Romanian -Albanian Genetic Link ( c /ts/

Sorry : some schemas were displayed shifted :

Please read :

> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *g^ ---*g' ---- *3 --------------------> D / d
> | Romanian
> ----- 3 -------> z (reg. dz)

> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *sw ---------- su --------- -----> Tu ----- T-
> | Romanian
> ---- su ----- s-

> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *k^ ---*c'------- *c ------------------> T / t
> | Romanian
> ----- c --------- c

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> On the subject to check if the Phonetic systems of Albanian was
> the same with the phonetic system of Romanian, and as result the
> Albanian and Romanians derived from a Comon Language (one fully
> Romanized , one partially Romanized)
>
>
> I previously checked (with the help of Miguel , Piotr and Alex)
> the reflexives of Latin /di/ in Rom. and Alb. and
> of the common Rom.-Alb. words '*ma3ule' '*vie3ure' 'bra3-

>
> At the end the assumption :
>
> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *g^ ---*g' ---- *3 --------------------> D / d
> | Romanian
> ----- 3 -------> z (reg. dz)
>
> was well checked togheter with the conclusion that
> the Romanization of Albanians starts later than the

Romanization

> of Romanians:
>
>
> Now I will try to check in this message the transformation :
>
> 2. *k' -> *c' -> c -> T -> T/t
> (touching partially of k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s )
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTE : I will use a,b,c,d,e-periods in place of Piotr

A,B,C,D,E-

> periods in order not to create confusions regarding his

periodization.

>
> > > a b c d e
> > > --- --- --- --- ---
> > > *k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
> > > *g' > *3' > *3 > *D > D ~ d
> > > *k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> > > *kW /+ > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> > > *g'w > *3'W > *3^ > *3 > z
> > > *gW /+ > *3'W > *3^ > *3 > z
>
> I tried to follow up three things :
> - c - Reflexes of Latin loans in Romanian
> - c T - Reflexes of Latin loans in Albanian
> - Romanians-Albanian common words that reflect the Albanian T
>
>
> 2.a Latin loans in Albanian and Romanian that reflects the
> transformation *k' -> *c' -> *c -> *T -> T/t
> (rom. *k' -> *c' -> *c -> c -> c)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> 2.a.1 In Romanian :
>
> a) Lat : ti/te -> Rom. T /c/
>
>
> Lat. ti -> Rom. t,
> ---------------------------------
> Lat. capitina -> Rom. cap~at,^in~a
> Lat. invitiare -> Rom. învat,~a
> Lat. inglutire -> Rom. ^inghit,i
> Lat. matia -> Rom. mat,
> Lat. pati -> Rom. p~at,i
> Lat. sementia -> Rom. samânt,~a
> Lat. scortea -> Rom scoart,~a
> Lat. subglutiarre -> Rom. sughit,a
> Lat. titia -> Rom. t,ât,~a (
> Lat. pretium -> Rom. pret,
>
> I localized these Latin Loans /ti/->Rom. c /t,/
> on the PIE *k' axes on the c-period where we have a /c/
> (see also below the Albanian-Romanian common words).
>
> (we are at the 't-moment'(c-period) along the PIE *k' (same
> moment as on g' axes))
>
> a b | c | d e
> --- --- ---- --- ---
> *k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
>
>
>
> 2.a.1 In Albanian:
>
> I identifies 2 types of Latin ti/te loans as reflections of c >

> and c^ > c > s:
>
> a) Type 1 (t+1 moment) of Latin loans :
>
> Lat. ti/te -> Alb. ti/t- (ti is stable)
> ----------------------------------------
> capitina -> kaptinë (see. Rom c~ap~at,^in~a )
> inglutire -> gëlltis (see. Rom ^inghit,i )
>
> (I tried to put here words that exists also in Romanian)
>
> We see, as expected, than Alb. ti is stable because we are
> at 't+1 moment' (d-period) along the PIE *k' so the reflexes of

Latin

> ti/te are already Alb T-/t- and not c
>
> a b c | d | e
> --- --- ---- ---- ---
> *k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
>
> This fit very well my assumptions.
>
> b) Type 2 of Latin loans (t+1):
> Lat. ti /te -> Alb. c > s
> -----------------------------------------
> Lat. palatium -> Alb. pëllas (thanks to Alex)
> Lat. patire -> Alb. psoj
> Lat. servitium -> Alb. shërbesë
> Lat. vitium -> Alb. ves
> Lat. ratione -> Alb. arsye
> Lat. puteu -> Alb. pus
>
> As expected (see /3/ case) this shows us the same reflexe of

> as for Romanian but on another axes c^ -> c -> s, where a /c/

exists

> at the 'next' moment of time.
>
> So I localized this second type of loans on the 't+1 moment' (d-
> period) of the axes *k'w or k'W ( at that moment the 2 axes have
> already merged):
>
> a b c | d | e
> --- --- ---- ------ ---
> *k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> *kW /+ > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
>
> This also fit very well my assumptions.
>
> NOTE : the periodization between different transformations is
> not yet established...
>
> Conclusion : the c reflexes in Latin Loans verifies again (as
> in case of /3/) the assumption : that Romanian and Albanian derived
> from a Common Language.
>
> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *k^ ---*c'------- *c ------------------> T / t
> | Romanian
> ----- c --------- c
>
> Also it verifies the observation that the Romanization of
> Romanians start earlier than the Romanization of Albanians.
>
>
> 3.a Albanian and Romanian common words that reflect the Alb.

T /th/

> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> I will check the conclusion above on the Albanian-Romanian

common

> words:
>
> The reflexes of Albanian T (th) - are the following in Romanian
> (see Rosseti ILR II):
> 1. rom. t, /c/ <-> th /T/
> 2. rom. s /s/ <-> th /T/
> 3. rom. ci /c^/ <-> th /T/
> 4. rom. f /f/ <-> th /T/
>
>
> 1. rom. c /t,/ <-> alb. T /th/
> ---------------------------
> t,eap~a <-> thep
> t,arc <-> thark
>
> This fit once again the conclusion above (see Latin loans):
>
> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *k' ---- c' ------ c ---- ------> T ----> T /t
> | Romanian
> --- c --- c
>
>
> Best regards,
> marius alexandru
>
>
>
> P.S. : the other Albanian-Romanian common words that reflect Alb. T
> have to be explained by other rules :
>
> 2. rom. s <-> alb. th (reflect the transformation of a PIE *sw
> based on the correspondances of rom.s <-> alb. th, as in :
>
> a) rom. s^ambure <-> alb. thumbullë (AlbRom. Common
> Language *sumbure)
>
> b) rom. cursa <-> alb. kurthë (AlbRom. Common
> Language *cursua )
>
> c) rom. sarb~ad <-> alb. i tharbëd (AlbRom. Common
> Language *suarb- )
>
> (note : rom. sarb~ad != rom. searb~ad)
>
> Reflects :
> PIE Common Language Albanian
> *sw ---------- su --------- -----> Tu ----- T-
> | Romanian
> ---- su ----- s-
>
> Note : there are some differences related to what Piotr wrote

> Albanian (3) but we are on the idea : axes *sw :
>
> " I don't know what happened to *sw- in unstressed syllables. I
> would expect *sw- > *Tw- > *T-, but I can't offer any examples."
>
>
>
> 3. rom. c^ /ci/ <-> alb. T /th/
>
> As in :
> rom. ciump <-> alb. thump
>
> Still unexplained, based on the Piotr transformations:
>
> It reflects a transformation :
> ? -> c^ -> c -> T (in Albanian)
> c^ -> c^ -> c^ (in Romanian )
> starting from a common c^.
>
> but I cannot say more or to arrive to the PIE.
>
>
> 4. rom. f <-> alb. th
>
> rom. f~ar^am~a <-> alb. thërime
>
> Still not explain either, using Piotr transformations.
>
> It could reflects a transformation :
> fT -> fT -> T (in Albanian)
> fT -> f - f (in Romanian)
> but is just to say something...

Re: Romanian -Albanian Genetic Link ( c /ts/ - story)