Hello All,
On the subject to check if the Phonetic systems of Albanian was
the same with the phonetic system of Romanian, and as result the
Albanian and Romanians derived from a Comon Language (one fully
Romanized , one partially Romanized)
I previously checked (with the help of Miguel , Piotr and Alex)
the reflexives of Latin /di/ in Rom. and Alb. and
of the common Rom.-Alb. words '*ma3ule' '*vie3ure' 'bra3-'
At the end the assumption :
PIE Common Language Albanian
*g^ ---*g' ---- *3 --------------------> D / d
| Romanian
----- 3 -------> z (reg. dz)
was well checked togheter with the conclusion that
the Romanization of Albanians starts later than the Romanization
of Romanians:
Now I will try to check in this message the transformation :
2. *k' -> *c' -> c -> T -> T/t
(touching partially of k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s )
-----------------------------------------------------------
NOTE : I will use a,b,c,d,e-periods in place of Piotr A,B,C,D,E-
periods in order not to create confusions regarding his periodization.
> > a b c d e
> > --- --- --- --- ---
> > *k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
> > *g' > *3' > *3 > *D > D ~ d
> > *k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> > *kW /+ > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
> > *g'w > *3'W > *3^ > *3 > z
> > *gW /+ > *3'W > *3^ > *3 > z
I tried to follow up three things :
- c - Reflexes of Latin loans in Romanian
- c T - Reflexes of Latin loans in Albanian
- Romanians-Albanian common words that reflect the Albanian T
2.a Latin loans in Albanian and Romanian that reflects the
transformation *k' -> *c' -> *c -> *T -> T/t
(rom. *k' -> *c' -> *c -> c -> c)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2.a.1 In Romanian :
a) Lat : ti/te -> Rom. T /c/
Lat. ti -> Rom. t,
---------------------------------
Lat. capitina -> Rom. cap~at,^in~a
Lat. invitiare -> Rom. învat,~a
Lat. inglutire -> Rom. ^inghit,i
Lat. matia -> Rom. mat,
Lat. pati -> Rom. p~at,i
Lat. sementia -> Rom. samânt,~a
Lat. scortea -> Rom scoart,~a
Lat. subglutiarre -> Rom. sughit,a
Lat. titia -> Rom. t,ât,~a (
Lat. pretium -> Rom. pret,
I localized these Latin Loans /ti/->Rom. c /t,/
on the PIE *k' axes on the c-period where we have a /c/
(see also below the Albanian-Romanian common words).
(we are at the 't-moment'(c-period) along the PIE *k' (same
moment as on g' axes))
a b | c | d e
--- --- ---- --- ---
*k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
2.a.1 In Albanian:
I identifies 2 types of Latin ti/te loans as reflections of c > T
and c^ > c > s:
a) Type 1 (t+1 moment) of Latin loans :
Lat. ti/te -> Alb. ti/t- (ti is stable)
----------------------------------------
capitina -> kaptinë (see. Rom c~ap~at,^in~a )
inglutire -> gëlltis (see. Rom ^inghit,i )
(I tried to put here words that exists also in Romanian)
We see, as expected, than Alb. ti is stable because we are
at 't+1 moment' (d-period) along the PIE *k' so the reflexes of Latin
ti/te are already Alb T-/t- and not c
a b c | d | e
--- --- ---- ---- ---
*k' > *c' > *c > *T > T
This fit very well my assumptions.
b) Type 2 of Latin loans (t+1):
Lat. ti /te -> Alb. c > s
-----------------------------------------
Lat. palatium -> Alb. pëllas (thanks to Alex)
Lat. patire -> Alb. psoj
Lat. servitium -> Alb. shërbesë
Lat. vitium -> Alb. ves
Lat. ratione -> Alb. arsye
Lat. puteu -> Alb. pus
As expected (see /3/ case) this shows us the same reflexe of c
as for Romanian but on another axes c^ -> c -> s, where a /c/ exists
at the 'next' moment of time.
So I localized this second type of loans on the 't+1 moment' (d-
period) of the axes *k'w or k'W ( at that moment the 2 axes have
already merged):
a b c | d | e
--- --- ---- ------ ---
*k'w > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
*kW /+ > *c'W > *c^ > *c > s
This also fit very well my assumptions.
NOTE : the periodization between different transformations is
not yet established...
Conclusion : the c reflexes in Latin Loans verifies again (as
in case of /3/) the assumption : that Romanian and Albanian derived
from a Common Language.
PIE Common Language Albanian
*k^ ---*c'------- *c ------------------> T / t
| Romanian
----- c --------- c
Also it verifies the observation that the Romanization of
Romanians start earlier than the Romanization of Albanians.
3.a Albanian and Romanian common words that reflect the Alb. T /th/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I will check the conclusion above on the Albanian-Romanian common
words:
The reflexes of Albanian T (th) - are the following in Romanian
(see Rosseti ILR II):
1. rom. t, /c/ <-> th /T/
2. rom. s /s/ <-> th /T/
3. rom. ci /c^/ <-> th /T/
4. rom. f /f/ <-> th /T/
1. rom. c /t,/ <-> alb. T /th/
---------------------------
t,eap~a <-> thep
t,arc <-> thark
This fit once again the conclusion above (see Latin loans):
PIE Common Language Albanian
*k' ---- c' ------ c ---- ------> T ----> T /t
| Romanian
--- c --- c
Best regards,
marius alexandru
P.S. : the other Albanian-Romanian common words that reflect Alb. T
have to be explained by other rules :
2. rom. s <-> alb. th (reflect the transformation of a PIE *sw
based on the correspondances of rom.s <-> alb. th, as in :
a) rom. s^ambure <-> alb. thumbullë (AlbRom. Common
Language *sumbure)
b) rom. cursa <-> alb. kurthë (AlbRom. Common
Language *cursua )
c) rom. sarb~ad <-> alb. i tharbëd (AlbRom. Common
Language *suarb- )
(note : rom. sarb~ad != rom. searb~ad)
Reflects :
PIE Common Language Albanian
*sw ---------- su --------- -----> Tu ----- T-
| Romanian
---- su ----- s-
Note : there are some differences related to what Piotr wrote in
Albanian (3) but we are on the idea : axes *sw :
" I don't know what happened to *sw- in unstressed syllables. I
would expect *sw- > *Tw- > *T-, but I can't offer any examples."
3. rom. c^ /ci/ <-> alb. T /th/
As in :
rom. ciump <-> alb. thump
Still unexplained, based on the Piotr transformations:
It reflects a transformation :
? -> c^ -> c -> T (in Albanian)
c^ -> c^ -> c^ (in Romanian )
starting from a common c^.
but I cannot say more or to arrive to the PIE.
4. rom. f <-> alb. th
rom. f~ar^am~a <-> alb. thërime
Still not explain either, using Piotr transformations.
It could reflects a transformation :
fT -> fT -> T (in Albanian)
fT -> f - f (in Romanian)
but is just to say something...