Re: Tor/Tur/(e)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Moretti" wrote:
>
> > In Celtic there's really no /dur/ "water".
>
> Really-really? Would you like to bet on that?!
> http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/institutes/sassi/spns/WatsIndex2.htm
> could bring you more information on the topic. See also "Dordogne"
> in which the first element is the very same Celtic "dur".

This /dur-/ is substratum, and pre-IE in its ultimare origin.

> > The correct Celtic word is /*dubron/ "water".
>
> Without * -- "dubron" is one of the Celtic water-words.
>
> > Hydronyms in /dur-/ or /tur-/ are unrelated
>
> Maybe. Or maybe not. It is of no use to state emphatically they
> aren't related. There are several "dur-" like Celtic words, the
> water-word "d(h)obhar" equally has the version "-twr", there is
> also "tur" `dry` in Celtic: any of these is a better candidate
> for the root in "Turicum" than "Thor".

First
They are unrelated, otherwise phonetics wouldn't match.
The Celtic words is from /dhub-/ - /*dheub-/.
We have no instances of /br/ becoming /r/.

Second
I never seid that /tur-/ /tor-/ toponyms are for Thor. It is simply a
Torsten's daydreaming that I dismiss with disgust.

> > and I think them related to Basque /iturri/ "source", itself of
> > unknown origin (I can't find any credible link).
>
> Oh, I didn't knew there were plenty of Basques in the Alps at
> 15 B.C.

First
Basque was related to a number of substratum languages, even so far
as in the Alps.

Second
A toponym attested in 15 B.C. can be much older. We still use to call
a city Rome, but this toponym goes back to Etruscan times.

> > /-i:cum/ is a Latinized ending for Celtic /*-i:kon/ with a
> > long vowel. In Lombardy and in France there is a plenty of
> > toponyms with the same Celtic ending.
>
> So?!

Study a little toponymy.

> > Celtic for "thunder" and "Thor" was /Taranis/, /Taranus/.
> > It's undeniable. And this argument should put an end to
> > anacronisms and rave.
>
> Which anacronisms are you speaking about?!

The anachronism I speak about is that assumed by Torsten.
I simply said:
Thor is a recent form, derived from the regular evolution of
*Thunaraz.
Toponyms in /tur-/ /tor-/ are very old.
So Torsten's idea of connecting the two thing is anachronistic.

> > Allahstadt? Yiips what a horror! Poor Germany! I hope that
> > something similar will never happen!
>
> That was a joke (but who knows?! :)).

It would be better for me a planet contaminated by plutonium!

Marco