Re: [tied] Re: *(H-)p/bh[-r/l-] again again

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:15:36 +0000, Marco Moretti
<marcomoretti69@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:33:10 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Have any of the Basque roots using this assumed /r/-containing
>> >collective suffix been suggested as loan words into Basque?
>>
>> Not to my knowledge. They are mostly basic vocabulary without any
>known
>> outside connections.
>
>I can only notice /zilar/ "silver", almost surely from Afro-Asiatic.

But if so, -arr is not the collective suffix, but merely due to the fact
that the borrowed item ended in -arr.

>I find also interesting thestrange /(h)ondar/ "sand". The /-nd-/
>cluster is rare; what etymology can you suggest?
>Trask thought a connection with Latin /fondus/ as in Basque /ondo/,
>but I'm not convinced at all.

The fact that the word means "residue" (Azkue: (1) residuo, heces; (2)
arena [de río]; (3) playa [=ondartza]; (4) borra de líquidos, esp. del
café; (5) último; (6) retal; (7) fondo) surely makes a derivation from Lat.
<fundum> VLat. <fondo> > *bondo + -arr > hondarr the most likely
hypothesis. The only doubt I have is that this would make -arr a
productive collective suffix until quite recently, which is slightly
unexpected.

>Another bizarre item is /zamar/, that Trask derive from /zabau/ <
>Lat. /sabanum/. /zamau/ is certainly from /sabanum/, but /zamar/ can
>be unrelated with /zamau/.

Catalan samarra, samarreta "shirt" is derived by Coromines from Bq. zamar
"fleece, sheep-skin coat". I don't think the source can be sabanum, but I
have no alternative suggestions (zamar < *sanbar, *danbar?).

>> It's possible that ilar (irar ~ idar) "pea(s)" is a borrowing from
>> Indo-European *p(e)it- "food, pea", with addition of the -arr
>collective
>> suffix (*pit-arr > idarr ~ irarr > ilarr).
>
>It is fully possible, although there are also NEC similar forms that
>cannot be ruled out a priori. It is a difficult case, and I'm still
>ruminating about this etymon.
>But I am not incline to consider /*p(e)it-/ as IE for "pea". Apart
>from Greek /pi:^sos/ (< /*pi:t-/ ?) and latin /pi:sum/ (from Greek),

Grk. písos, Lat. pisum (short i).

>what IE connection can you find in other languages with this peculiar
>meaning?

Isn't that enough? In the general sense of "food", we have OIr. <ith>
"*Nahrung, Korn, Getreide", OWe. <it> (< Pre-Celtic *pitu-).

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...