[tied] Re: ...Crãciun...

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

> Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
> > 02-01-04 19:28, alex wrote:
> >
> >> wherefrom do you want to have /t /+ /y/ when short /i/ > /e/ in

PBR?

> >
> > Not again, Alex. You've asked this question before. Check the

archives

> > if you don't remember the answer.
> >
> > Piotr
>
> I indeed do not remember. I remember about Miguels opinion tha the

group

> "ti" should have had a "debile" comportment in Romance and not

more as

> that.

The basic consonant rule is given in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18412 . It was one
of the rules described as 'early (largely shared with Italian)'. If
you can't remember, you could always have a look in my 'toy', as you
call it. I give the primary Cybalist sources in the comments in the
rules.

> Mr Iacomi will come probably with Rosetti's mention that
> "postconsonantic short /i/ when followed by /a,o,u/

becomes "y" .For

> this affirmation Rosetti shows some _latin examples_ (not example

from

> Romance) as follow:
> balteus not baltius, brattea non brattia, calceus non calcius,

cavea non

> cavia, palearium not paliarium, solea not soliatinea non tinia,

vinea

> non vinia ( examples from Appendix Probi).
> more, he shows some regresions as lilium non lileum, alium not

aleum,

> ostium not osteum ( examples from Appendix Probi too).
>
> I assume on the bassis of such "failures" in the folks's mouth,

one can

> easy postulate that /ti/ > /ti/ and does not need anything more to
> explain.

What these examples show is that the difference between /e/ and /i/
was small or non-existent in this context. It says nothing about
its conversion to a semivowel.

> Eventualy the only add should be that there is not the latin
> suffix "-tio:nem" but the same bad form in VLat which became /-

tionem/

> and there is the requested /y/, not in Rom. where there is

imposible the

> /y/ from /e/ and the ty > Ti and not "c^".

The point is that this unstressed pre-vocalic vowel became the semi-
vowel. The same phenomenon has happened in English - _ocean_ has
changed from 3 syllables (scan as though /&Usi:&n/ when reading
Sheakespeare), but is now pronounced /&US&n/. There may have been a
long period when the two forms, vowel and semivowel coexisted, or at
least fashions swung. That is the case in present day English,
though the case of English is complicated by universal literacy. In
this context, there should not have been any unstressed /i:/ to
contrast, for Classical Latin had shortened long vowels immediately
preceding other vowels. In Romanian, the principle outcome was its
merger with a preceding dental or palatal (formally velar) consonant.

The pattern can be seen throughout Romance. Some of the words above
have survived:

_cavea_ > Fr. _cage_, Sp. _gavia_, It. _gabbia_. The initial
consonants are all irregular, but are not unprecedented.

_vinea_ > Fr. _vigne_, Sp. _viña_, It. _vigna_, Rom. _vie_.

Romanian _vie_ is misleading - the 'e' derives from the 'a', not
the 'e'.

_li:lium_ > Fr. _lis_. I don't know if Italian _giglio_ is
related. I suspect Romanian _lilie_ is a loan rather than an
inherited form.

_alium_ > Fr. _ail_, Sp. _ajo_, It. _aglio_.

Richard.