Proper methodology (was: RE: [tied] Re: Mother of all IE languages)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:12:33 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
>
> >And the Dutch calque /U/ < /Uwe Genade/
>
> U.E. (Uwe Edelheid, or U Edele), actually. The abbreviation became

Uwé

> /ywé:/, /ýw&/ then U /y/. This was obviously helped bij the fact

that the

> oblique of <gij> always had been <u>, and the possessive <uw>, <uwe>
> /yw(&)/ (Northern: <jij>, <jou>, <jouw(e)>).
>
> >But no matter. A principal quesion: do you believe that 'pronoun'

is

> >a necessary category in language, such that every individual

language

> >necessarily must have a set of them?
>
> Some East Asian languages get by without them, so no.
>
> However, even in situations of pronoun avoidance, certain turns of

phrase

> tend to become standardized as referring to first, second (and

third)

> person. They can either become full-fledged personal pronouns

again, or,

> if the social pressures haven't changed, they can become taboo

again and

> replaced by a new set of standardized circumlocutions, and so on,

and so

> on. Not unlike what happens to nouns and verbs denoting sexual

actions,

> ethnic minorities, etc.

The next question I have then, is: Given that such languages exist,
are they the result of what you call "pronoun avoidance", which would
entail that the language once had pronouns, but lost them; or are
they a continuation of the original state of pronounless affairs?

>
> >If so, then this would answer the question of the missing Japanese
> >pronouns, they must then have been lost in the course of time.
> >Personally, I think the idea of a pronoun requires a certain

amount

> >of self-reflection on the part of a culture.
>
> *Language* requires a certain amount of self-reflection. There is

always a

> speaker (1st person), a spoken-to (2nd. person) and a spoken-about

(3rd.

> person), whether overtly grammaticalized or not.
>

Non sequitur. The fact that that situation exists in all speech acts
does not entail that the speakers of the language have reflected on
that fact, or further that they have formed the corresponding
concepts in their minds, or further that they have come up with words
for those concepts. Coco, the 'talking' gorilla, doesn't use
pronouns, afaIk.

Torsten