Re: Non-Indo-European in Germanic

From: tgpedersen
Message: 27896
Date: 2003-12-02

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "studey22" <lookwhoscross-
eyednow@...> wrote:
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
> > In a footnote Udolph mentions a rumour (1988) from a colleague of
> a
> > dissertation being written in Minich (but not heard of again in
> 1993)
> > according to which the Jastorf culture might have come from the
> south
> > (which would fit in with Cimmerians > Cimbri etc).
>
> A problem with proposing a Cimmeri-Cimbri connection- mb must
> precede mm,

Not necessarily. The -mb- of 'lamb' and 'comb' is from -m-, Medieval
Danish has 3 sg 'kumbær' (now 'kommer'), but there's no -b- in the
Old Norse form, and cf. VLatin *omne > *omre > Spanish hombre
(approx!).

>which is probably why Strabo and Poseidonius suggested
> the Cimmeri came from the Cimbri, migrating eastwards, as they must
> have been aware that this phonetic phenomenon was unlikely, unlike
> Plutarch, who believed the Cimbri came from the Cimmeri.

I don't think you find that type of argument in the classical writers.

>
> While, the Thraco-Cimmerian remains found in Hungary in a Hallstatt
> level in conjunction with the seemingly Thracian/Scythian origin of
> the style of the Gundestrup cauldron can be taken to be evidence
> of a connection between the Cimbri and Cimmeri, there's no
> linguistic evidence for this connection, unless you want to believe
> the Cimmerian presence in Hungary was absorbed by the Hallstatt
> Celtic population and migrated to northern Europe as the Cimbri.
>

Which is one scenario. The problem is we don't know much of the
language of the Cimbri.

> regarding the rest of what you said, what language would you
suggest
> was spoken in the Nordwestblock area if you had to guess?
>

I just ordered Kuhn's books from the library, so I'll take a rain
check on that question. Udolph seems to rather incensed at Kuhn's
handing over western Germany to some unknown people, and I'm not sure
his version of Kuhn's ideas does justice to the original. It seems
Kuhn found evidence of hydronymics in Northern Germany with stops
(mostly in inlaut) that haven't been subjected to the Germanic sound
shift. Udolph explains that by a Noreen alternation of various
suffixes (-p-/-b-, -t-/-d- etc, I've used it often), where for some
reason pre-Germanic always favored the voiced alternative. I'm not
convinced.


Torsten