Re: [tied] Re:

From: alex
Message: 27661
Date: 2003-11-26

m_iacomi wrote:

>> The irregularity is not there but here: "neus" > "i".
>
> Over the centuries, final post-tonic /neu/ reduces to /y/ in
> Daco-Romanian, written in Romanian current spelling as "i". The
> Common Romanian intermediate phase [n^u] is still alive in some
> Western DR subdialects and in Aromanian (thus one could very well
> forget about the * in "cãlcãn'u" since it really is the actual
> form in Aromanian).

you sustain here a change of "eu" to "i"; so far I know there is just a
presumably change of "eu" to "i" but this is from PIE "eu" to Rom. "i" ,
see *leuk- >licãri.
I fail to see here _how_ Latin "eu" > "i" keeping the stress. Assuming
the "eu" > "ieu" one _must_ accept that the stress of Latin word
"calcaneus" was on "e", thing which is not acceptable if I am not wrong.
If the stress was not on "e", then there is no posibility of
diphtongation of "e" from "eus" to "ie"; from this point results that
there is no posibility of "n'" from "n" due missing "i".

>
> It is no need "to try to get" anything. The intermediate phase does
> exist in spoken dialects, it is even attested in an ancient script
> as "Psaltirea Scheiana" ("cãlcãniiu"), it would be far too much to
> have the faintest shadow of a doubt on [n'(y)] > [y].
>
>> but it won't stil explain the lost of "eus".
>
> Of course it does. In fact, present DR [y] is directly due to the
> frontal non-vocalic "e" in diphthong "eu" which was treated as yod
> and palatalized (up to dissapearance in DR) the preceeding /n/.

_if stressed_ /e/ has a yotacised nuance, otherways there is plain "e".
Thus this is not a good explanation since "e" in "eus" could not be
stressed.

>> [...] cãlcâieu >
>
> ... which are neither attested nor likely intermediates since
> Romanian ancient texts show no trace of /e/ but the /n^/, as well
> as in Aromanian.

The OlRom and Arom. forms does not say anything about the presumabely
change of Latin calcaneus in this way. It simply remains very doubtfully
this intriguing change..

>
> There is no phonetical trouble. Compare also "capitaneu(m)" >
> DR "cãpãtâi", ["ante" >] "*antaneum" > AR "ntân'u", DR "întâi",
> "întân'u", etc.

capitaneum is not cãpãtâi from the semantical aspect here. It is as you
will compare Italian "capitto" with Rom. "cãpitsã" sustaining they are
one and the same thing because phoneticaly "almost" the same.
Why do you put them together? Because of the phonetical form?
Observation: the reconstructed forms for a language where _we know_ its
forms are not very serious. There are very big chanses these
reconstructed forms never existed.

>
>> Why should have been lost final "eu"?
>
> It was no longer a final "eu" but a final /u/ following a
> palatalized consonant /n^/ which was usually muted in modern DR,
> this being a very well-known feature of the main dialect.

this is this where you don't want to see. You cannot have an "n^"
without an "i" and this "i" could be by no mean from Latin "eus". That
is the very point of the trouble.

>
>> (mereu is an example of keeping the final "eu".
>
> ... coming from a Hungarian word (that is: having get into the
> language _after_ Common Romanian split, hence at a moment in
> which palatalization given by yod was no longer active) and in
> different phonetical conditions (if you "palatalize" /r/ you
> will get... ?).
>
>> BTW "mereu", I compare it with Germanic mehr, immer and not
>> as DEX does with Hungarian "merö" which means "fix, rigide").
>
> It would have been nice to give the meaning of "mereu": `(for)
> ever`, `in aeternam`. Something lasting for ever does not change
> thus it is "fixed", "rigid", "unbending" as Hungarian word (BTW,
> nowdays it's "merev") implies. Mehr licht?!
>
> Marius Iacomi

Are you kidding? fixed , rigid, should have evoluated semantic in rom.
giving the meanings always, all the time, (for) ever; ceaselessly,
slowly, without hasle, which is from one edge until another edge, in
short intervals, etc? Even DEX-collective does not has the courage to
see it as a loan from Hungarian telling us to compare it with the
Hungarian word.

Alex