Re: [tied] Albanian Names (2) -> Bessa comeback

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 04:33:29 +0000, alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

> My Arguments Related to your basic explanation:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> I. "it can be derived without the slightest difficulty from
>*bHéndH-tah2 (*-twah2 would also work" are:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Argument 1: if it can be derived "without the slightest
>difficulty" why Demiraj didn't derived Albanian
> 'besa' "without the slightest difficulty" from the PIE *bhendh ?
>
> Here is Demiraj derivation for besa:
>
> Albanian form: bese' [f] (tg)
> Meaning: faithfulness, faith
> Proto-Albanian: biTs/ia: {2}
> Other Alb. forms: besoj [verb] (tg) {3} `to believe'
> Page in Demiraj AE: 96
> IE reconstruction: bh(e)idhi- {1}
> Meaning of the IE root: persuasion, oath
> Greek: `persuasion'
> Notes: {1} Based on the genitive. {2} Phonetically, a full
>grade form PAlb. *beiTs/ia: is also possible. {3} Denominative
>formation in -o- of Alb. origin.
>
> As you can see the derivation is from "bh(e)idhi-" (persuasion,
>oath) and not from the PIE "bhendh".
> If it is so obvious as you said, why Demiraj "couldn't find" the
>PIE "bhendh" in this case?

Demiraj apparently preferred a derivation from *bheidh-. I must say I
don't fully understand Demiraj's etymology. A derivation from the genitive
of *bh(e)idhi- (*bh(e)idiós?, *bh(e)idhéis?) could perhaps lead to Alb.
*biz-, not to besë. I can't consult the Leiden online Demiraj at the
moment, so I can't parse the Proto-Albanian form you give as "biTs/ia", but
it appears to contain an extra suffix (probably *-tya:). Combinining a
genitive *biz with a suffix *-tya: could conceivably lead to besë, but on
the whole I prefer Piotr's expalanation.

In Pokorny's IEW, by the way, besë is given _both_ under *bheidh and under
*bhendh-.

> Argument 2: What I found also strange in your derivation is the
>fact that the meaning of the word "besa"
> is COMPLETELY IGNORED : PIE *bhend -> alb. "besa".
> There isn't an 'obvious word' related to "faith" in any other IE
>languages that have derived words from
>the PIE *bhendh.

English <bond>, German <Bund>.

> Argument 3: The derivation of pese: : indeed has no difficulty
>as result Demiraj 'indicated very easy'
> IE : *penkwe (as you did too).
>
> But there is a problem with "bese:" and from there
>some 'obvious' workarounds :
>
> a) your workaround : "tah2 (*-twah2 would also work; both
>suffixes form nomina actionis)".
>
> b) Demiraj workaround : '{1} Based on the genitive' etc...
>
> A "real" IE root for 'besa' have to contains a "kw" or
>something related in the stem...as in "pese:"

I'm afraid your grasp of Albanian soundlaws leaves to be desired. Albanian
/s/ can be derived from many other sources besides *kW+front vowel.
There's *ty, *k^y, *k^w, etc.

> Argument 4: What happens with original "dh" from your
>PIE "bhendh" until you arrive to 'besa' ?
> It dissapears "by contraction"? It becomes albanian "t" or "ts"
>(the (s) after t is there or not)? Or you completely ignored it
>because you need ONLY the 't' fron 'thah2'?

Piotr was assuming a basic knowledge of the soundlaws concerning the clash
of two dental stops in Proto-Indo-European. The gist of it is that a form
*bhendh-tah2 will automatically become *bentsta: at some stage of
Pre-Albanian. And *bentsta: > *be~c^a > besë.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...