Re: [tied] Re: celtic

In Italic and Celtic occurs an assimilation p-kW

>kW-kW, cf. quinque (*penkWe, "5"), coquo (*pekWo: "I cook"), quercus

(*perkWus "oak")

Joao SL

----- Original Message -----

From: guto rhys

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:22 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: celtic

Correct me if I am wrong - which I often am.

The initial consonant of PIE *penkWe was analogically remodelled on the preceeding numeral *kWetWor (??) in early Celtic. Giving thus *KwenkWe, latter *kW- > p- in P-Celtic. Attested by Welsh 'pump', rather thatn **ump.

An identical process happened in Proto-Germanic but it was the form for the numeral 'four' that was remodelled on the following numeral, thus *kW- > f- (Goth. fidwor).

Is this the same logic used for the apparent initial p- in the word for 4 in some Italic dialects?

How common is analogical remodelling in numerals??

alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
> 02-10-03 19:10, alex wrote:
>
>> So far I could accidentally gather from the information exposed with
>> several
>> occasions here, I retained that in Celtic , better said in the
>> "P"-dialects the initial "p" was lost.
>>
>> Question:
>> -what did happen in the "Q"-dialects of Celtic with the initial
>> "q"? Was this lost too as the initial "p" in "P"-group or it was
>> retained?
>
> Pre-Celtic *p- was lost in _all_ of Celtic without exception. The
> change of *kW > p in Gallo-Brittonic ("p-Celtic") was later, and the
> secondary /p/ resulting from it was not lost! In the rest of Celtic
> old *kW simply survived as a dorsal consonant.
>
> Pre-Celtic *kWenkWe 'five' > OIr. cóic; Gaul. pempe, Wel. pump.
>
> Piotr

I guess I got it now. The "wonder" here was in fact one has to deal with
two kind of "p". One older, before kW >p , thus a PIE "p" and a celtic
"p" ( from a PIE "kW.")

Thank you Piotr.

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