Re: [tied] Glen, regarding...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Glen, regarding...


> 01-10-03 20:38, Patrick C. Ryan wrote:
>
> > When I pursued this question on another list, I also got the
> > knee-jerk reaction of 'racism' from some listmembers, the others
> > being reluctant to express their opinions for fear of the same smear
> > tactics.
> >
> > But the simple facts are that NO ONE has yet been able to
> > satisfactorily explain why sound systems change.
>
> Are you suggesting that "racial" factors have something to do with
> language change?

<PCR>
Well, I would prefer genetic factors because the factors may or may not coincide with the groupings which are often termed 'race'.

What's the evidence? Languages and their subsystems
> change because they have all the necessary properties of evolving
> systems.

<PCR>
Evolution is still understood as a process in which random changes, which have survival value, are maintained.

There are many examples of living things like, for instance, the crocodile, which apparently have not changed much over great periods of time. Should there not also be languages which have remained the same over great periods of time? And if not, why not?

Let us take an example of phonological change which is quite commonly observed, the change of (aspirated) stops into their equivalent spirants, for example /p(H)/ into /f/.

Presumably, in your evolutionary scenario, a segment of a language population would incorrectly repliacte /p(H)/, and this would eventually spread to the larger language population. What 'survival value' could possibly be attributed to this change?


>A language is a population of potential replicators (idiolects)
> with built-in diversity. A complex code of communication is transmitted
> from one generation of speakers to the next; the nature of the process
> of language acquisition guarantees imperfect replication. The size of
> the population is limited, so variants are involved in competition, etc.

<PCR>
But what determines the 'winner' of this competition?


> Change is _inevitable_ in such circumstances, just like Darwinian
> evolution in the living world, because there is nothing to guarantee
> long-term stability. A living language that resists all change would be
> a _real_ miracle. Studies of sound change in progress are a busy field
> nowadays. I dare say we understand the general mechanism of change
> rather well, and I see no reason to build an aura of mystery around it.

<PCR>
Yes, we can observe sound change in progress. And, of course, the mechanics of it can be described. But the reason for it has yet to be found.

> Piotr

Pat

PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)