Re: [tied] Re: Indo-European for Uralic speakers

Piotr,

 

Congratulations! Four years of IE Forum...which could not have become such a storming success without your decisive contribution as the moderator and a seemingly inexhaustible source of reliable information on matters Indo-European (and on many other topics, too). So, while we now know that a glass of Pinot Noir (preferably from colder and wetter areas) is our best bet for longer life, may I still raise a toast that exemplifies areal effects going beyond family boundaries - and proves that while we do not call ourselves "Finns", we do appreciate our Fenni heritage - a healthy dose of Finnish vodka...

 

Going back to this ever fascianating topic of "Finn", "Finns" and "Finnish", I now state unhesitatingly (what I have believed from the very beginning): all resistance to Huld-Gasiorowski theory is futile and my countrymen should finally learn to put false modesty aside...:)

 

Which raises an interesting question: why didn�t the early Finnic-speaking men start using the Indo-European word for themselves? After all, self-designating words in the Uralic family tend to be loans, so, why an earth have the Finns failed to follow the suit? Why instead "Suomi", "suomalainen" and "suomalaiset"?

 

Petri Kallio has provided an intriguing perspective on this anomalous state of affairs.

According to Kallio (�Viritt�j�� 4/1998) The Northwest Indo-European word for "earth, land"/"man" was  *ģ^hm-ōn (sorry for the poor reproduction as Latin-1 does not seem to permit any better). This word became in some later IE languages "guma" or something very similar. However, these is now a distinct possibility that the earliest Indo-Europeans in Finland, namely, the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) arrivals used such a word for themselves and that the (Pre) Finnic (Comb Wares) people accepted it as their self-designation, too... 

 

To be more specific, it became *coma in early Proto-Fennic, then *sōmi in late Proto-Fennic and ultimately "Suomi"...

 

What do you think, might it not be possible that Finns have failed to call themselves "Finns" because they already had adopted a word that probably meant something as flattering as the "Finn"...:) ? 

 

Cheers, Juha

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Piotr Gasiorowski <piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:

31-08-03 00:51, Juha Savolainen wrote:

> The name Finland (Swedish) /Finland, finne/ 'Finn' has never been used
> by the Finns themselves. The oldest record (Tacitus 98 A. D.: /fenni/)
> and the compound word structure of /Finland/ lead one to conclude that
> /finne/ must be considered a primary alternate for Finland. The stem
> /finne/ (< /findo/ 'Finder' < /*fenthan- ~ *fenthn-/) may originate from
> the same word as (Old High German) /fendo/, (Middle High German) /vende/
> 'pedestrian; wanderer' (/*fanthian-/), (Old High German) /fand_on/,
> (Anglo-Saxon) /fandian/ 'research; try, check', (Middle High German)
> /vanden/ 'visit', (Gothic) /finthan/, (Old High German) /finthan/ etc.,
> 'find, notice, get aware', etc. The original meaning suggested for
> /finne/ by Hultman as early as 1896 is 'wanderer', an explanation
> describing the way of life of the people (cf. (Livonian) /kal�mi'eD/
> 'Livonians; fishermen'). This meaning conforms with what Tacitus wrote
> about the /fenni/. Fishers, hunters and people with no permanent
> dwelling place may be appropriately described as 'wanderers'.
> 
> http://www.helsinki.fi/jarj/sus/julkaisut/ct/ct51grunthal.html

Hultman's etymology was the most popular one until recently. The most
serious problem with it is that the required intermediate form
*fen�-n-a- (or Vernerian *fend-n-a-, both from PIE *penth2-) is proposed
entirely ad hoc. "Weak" agent nouns in *-an- are a productive Germanic
formation, so one wouldn't normally expect *fen�-an- (or *fend-an-) to
be converted into an a-stem. In other words, Old English would have
*fi:�a (pl. *fi:�an) or *finda (pl. *findan) rather than the attested
forms, i.e. finn (pl. finnas). Martin Huld's new solution is elegant and
formally impeccable (apart from its entertaiment value); the proposed
pre-form *pes-no- 'man' is independently attested in Hittite. It also
strengthens the reconstruction *pesos 'penis' (stem *pes-es-; cf. Gk.
peos and OInd. pasas-). The word <finn> occurs as a Germanic name --
most notably that of Finn, king of the North Frisians. Some Finnish
scholars (e.g. Raimo Anttila) have accepted the new etymology
ethusiastically -- hah, who wouldn't?

Piotr



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