Re: [tied] Enclosed Places (was: The unexplained link between Greek

Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:

> 13-07-03 08:10, alex wrote:
>
>> I fail to see your comparative point here. You get very well from the
>> low meaning fence) a semantic development town, but not other ways.
>> For comparation, in South Slavic you have "grad"= town . Do you
>> expect an backwards development in Alb. and Rom. to the sence of
>> "fence"?. Piotr try to see a specialised semantic in Slavic, hence
>> there must have been the meaning in Slavic of "fence" and this is
>> why Rom. and Alb. has the meaning "fence". Why _must_ have been in
>> Slavic a such meaning even if _ there is no meaning_ in actual
>> Slavic for fence? Because otherways you cannot explain the senses in
>> Alb. and Rom, and then this is not a loan from Slavic then.
>
> No, because otherwise you cannot explain why the Slavic denominal verb
> *groditi means 'enclose, supply with a fence' and not 'supply with a
> town'. The meaning of Germanic *gardaz is also notoriously shifty;
> Goth. gards could also mean 'house', 'household' or 'court'. And the
> semantic development of English <town> is of course a perfect
> parallel for the case of Slavic *gordU.

Then you got it simply from Romanians. And it fits like a glove since
the Romanian "ã" will be rendered in Slavic as "o". Something against
it?.

>
>> In fat this is an old subject and the way too see the
>> things, is a point of view developed by Miclosicz in fact. ( There
>> must have been something in Slavic _now lost_ because it is to find
>> in Alb. or Rom. or in both of them.Thus these words are like
>> germanic words in finish "frozen" there, but they must have been
>> coming to these people trough Slavic.) This is why Abdullah made the
>> remarque about the "drink on the expense .. etc." The remarque of
>> Abdullah was not directed specialy for Piotr, but specialy for the
>> easiness of explaing everything trough Slavs.
>
> "Everything"? This is a straw-man argument. I think we all agree that
> there are plenty of Slavic loans in both Albanian and Romanian. We
> disagree about some individual items only, and I'm arguing for what I
> think is the most reasonable solution from the point of view of a
> linguist. I'm not a Slavic linguistic imperialist and I have no
> particular axe to grind in this dispute.

Oh my.., do not take now with the Goldenewage. I will avoid in the
future the use of "everything":-)And there are plenty of slavic loans
but clear are just these which can be recognised in Slavic. In the same
manner, there are a lot of loans from Albanians and Romanian into the
Slavic languages. And if we will not make clear what is what in each
language we will remain far away from the truth.

>
>> In fact one forget easy here that the Slavs have been
>> migrating people but they are supposed to have brought to the
>> sedentary population where they came, notions which are related to
>> the sedentar life.
>
> The Slavs migrated, but they were not specialised nomads. On the
> contrary, farming was their main occupation. They certainly had
> fences, enclosures and palisaded forts. And it seems to me that the
> Proto-Romanian population wasn't all that sedentary either, if it
> included a large proportion of seasonally migrating pastoralists.

You will have trouble here with the defenders of the Latinness of the
Rom. , people who see that the big part of the agriculutural vocabulary
should be of Latin origin. And this will not point out for a nomadic way
of life as that of a part of Rom. called valahas.

> People don't always borrow new words together with new inventions or
> concepts. They very frequently borrow a word for no _obvious_ reason,
> like e.g. <cattle> for <feoh> 'livestock, property' in English.

Piotr, between borrowing some words and the amount of "slavic" words in
Rom. and Alb. is a big difference. Recently Mr Iacomi posted an older
statistic with the percentages of the words. The huge amount of tousend
of words speak for itself.

>
>> And there was nothing cleared, otherway Piotr wont bring back that
>> the Rom. and Alb. words are a loan from Slavic:-)
>
> Richard meant the timing and outcome of liquid metathesis. I think
> _that_ was dealt with rather well.
>
> Piotr
>

Yes. That was dealt with, indeed.