From: george knysh
Message: 23188
Date: 2003-06-13
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh*****GK: As far as I can tell from the writings of 4th
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> > George (Stana) wrote:
> > The Proto-Romanian
> > speaking population (to be stressed here: having a
> > very low social status, kind of marginalized
> > population
> > in the entire area *for centuries*) kept though a
> > series
> > of fundamental Christian terminology of Latin
> > extraction.
> > Even the word "basilica" ( > "biserica"), which is
> > unique
> > in the Romance-speaking world, where the other
> Greek
> > term has prevailed, Latinised ecclesia > Ital.
> chiesa,
> > Sp. iglesia. This "biserica" might be interpreted
> as a
> > further sign of Protoromanians existing outside
> the
> > official "paths" of clergy activity in the Eastern
> > Roman
> > empire, a clergy that anyway soon ceased to speak
> > Latin and, instead, spoke Greek.
> >
> > GK: Can you give me more insight into this
> very
> > peculiar aspect of Romanian ecclesiastical
> > terminology? Am I to understand that "biserica"
> (from
> > "basilica") is the standard Romanian word for
> > "church"? If so, and if there is a way to date the
> > inclusion of the word into the language, the
> > implications would be most interesting. As you
> have
> > stated, it is the Greek term (via Latin) which
> entered
> > the vocabulary of the Romance speaking peoples
> > (ecclesia, eglise etc.) I have some familiarity
> with
> > early Christian writings. I cannot offhand
> remember a
> > situation where "basilica" stood for "church" pure
> and
> > simple. The standard Latin term was ALWAYS
> "ecclesia".
> > A basilica was a very special kind of church, a
> royal
> > church, large and splendid (well we know this of
> > course). Not your local village church or
> neighborhood
> > church. Not the sort of word which you would use,
> > especially simple people, to designate a church.
> So a
> > people which adopted this term early or whenever
> as a
> > designation for just "church" would not have been
> part
> > of the standard late Roman Christian communities
> in
> > any recognizable sense. It almost sounds as an
> exotic
> > loan word. The circumstances under which it was
> > borrowed are obscure. I won't let my imagination
> work
> > overtime here. I would just say that this one word
> > suggests that the Proto-Romanians had little if
> any
> > dealings with either Roman or Greek clergy during
> the
> > postulated early times of their alleged conversion
> > (3/4 cs.) "Ecclesia" is simply not a word which
> would
> > drop out of your vocabulary�
> A few tidbits I found, although not much help:
> Elcock "The Romance Languages" (1960) writes:
> [ECCLESIA gained]in
> the fifth century a marked ascendency over the rival
> word BASILICA,
> a much earlier borrowing into Latin."
> Buck's "Synonyms" has: Lat. 'basilica' ... hence*****GK: What kind of inscriptions? I don't doubt that
> Rum. 'biserica',
> also Alb., Vegliot and Rhaeto-Roman words for
> 'church'
> (Fr. 'basoche' in a quite different sense), and
> according to the
> evidence of Christian inscriptions 'basilica' was
> once current over
> a much wider area."
> For those as ignorant as myself, i found__________________________________
> somewhere:
>
> basoche (French entry by Randle Cotgrave 1611)
> Basoche: f. The whole troupe, or companie of Lawyers
> Clearks in the
> palace of Paris, hauing among them a king, and their
> peculiar lawes;
> hence also, reuell, misrule (for these fellowes are
> none of the
> soberest) also, a certaine baudie Court, wherein
> wiues that beat
> their husbands, are censured. Fief de la Basoche. Il
> tient du fief
> de la B. He is a pratling, or iangling Lawyer; or
> (as a Lawyers
> Clerke) an vnruly copesmate; or, his wife is his
> master. Roy de la
> Basoche. The Master of Misrule, or chiefe man among
> the Clerkes,
> when they make their shewes.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>