Re: [tied] Re:Status of Hittite

Miguel, thank you very much for the detailed comments.
As far as I can see you also support the idea of an early splitting of
"non-Anatolian IE" in Tocharian and the "core IE" (i.e. IE without Anatolian
and Tocharian).
How could you estimate the time of this process? I realize that actually
there is no ground for precise measurements and the answer could be in form
"rather soon after splitting off Anatolian" or
"just before the disintegration of the core IE" or
"approximately in the middle of the timespan between these 2 events".
Can Tocharian cultural lexics help us here?

Alexander

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re:Status of Hittite


> On Fri, 30 May 2003 18:46:30 +0400, Alexander Stolbov
> <astolbov@...> wrote:
>
> >> > secondly, an innovation shared by all IE languages but Anatolian and
> >> Tocharian.
> >>
> >> The "thorny" metathesis of *tk clusters, as in *dg^Ho:m and *h2r.tk^os
.
> >
> >
> >Piotr, could you please explain this in more details (examples are
> >appreciated)?
>
> The original order dental + velar is maintained in Hitt. te:kan,
> tagnas, Toch A tkam. (Toch B kem.), while it is reversed in Greek
> khtho:n, Skt. ks.am-. We don't have a Tocharian reflex of "bear", but
> Hitt. hartaggas (/xartkas/) has dental+velar, as opposed to *h2r.k^tos
> in the Rest (OIr. art, Lat. ursus, Grk. arktos, Arm. arj^, Skt.
> r.ks.as)
>
> >I can't estimate how serious are the following correspondences between
> >Tocharian and Italic, however they have been reported:
> >- Genitive singular -í
>
> The Tocharian genitive is a thorny subject. The most common form is
> TochA -s, TochB -ntse, which Adams ("Tocharian", p. 139) explains as
> coming from the Proto-Tocharian definite declension (n-stem byforms of
> other stems, with partially pronominal endings), gen.sg. *-nes(y)ó (>
> *-n(ä)sé > -ntse), gen.pl. *-nesom > TochB -nts, TochA. -is. Besides
> this, we find many other forms, some of them with transparent PIE
> explanations (nt-stem -nte < *-ntos; u-stem TochA seyo < *soyous <
> *su(:)y-ous "of the son"), others more mysterious (e.g. -epi/-(y)a:p).
> One fairly common form is indeed -i. Adams derives it from the i-stem
> genitive in *-eis, despite the fact that it is not found on any
> original i-stem (ToB seyi "of the son" u-stem; ToB ma:tri "of teh
> mother" r-stem).
>
> The Latin o-stem genitive in -i: is also of disputed origin. It is
> traditionally linked to the Celtic genitive in *-i:. Possibly both
> the Latin and Celtic genitives are simply from *-osyo with early loss
> of the *-s-: *-oyo > *-oy > *-i:. Celtiberian has -o (vs. C-stem -os,
> so perhaps from -oso > -oo > -o), Old Lepontic -oiso (younger -i), Old
> Latin and Faliscan stillhave -(i)osio, Osco-Umbrian -eis (< i-stems).
> The Latin pronoun cuius is from *kWosyo > *kWoio + -s > *kWoios >
> cuius.
>
> >- Relative pronouns kwis
>
> This is a shared feature of Anatolian, Tocharian, Italic, Celtic and
> Germanic (probably a shared archaism).
>
> >- Medium voice in -r (is this the mentioned "r-middle"?)
>
> Again, this is found in Anatolian, Tocharian, Italic, Celtic, and is
> likely to be a shared archaism.
>
> >- Subjunctive mood with -á- / -é-
>
> Subjunctives (futures) in -a:- and -e:- as well as preterites in -a:-
> and -e:- can be found in most IE languages. Their origin is unclear.
> I have suggested a perfect (stative) subjunctive in:
>
> -a-h2a > -a:
> -e-th2a > [-etha]
> -e-e > -e:
>
> This corresponds best with the Latin future of the i- and C-stems:
>
> -a:-m > -am
> -e:-s > -e:s
> -e:-t > -et
> -e:-mos > -e:mus
> -e:-tes > -e:tis
> -e:-nt > -ent
>
> A perfect/stative subjunctive seems a good starting point for
> subsequent specializations towards:
>
> (perfect) preterit (Balto-Slavic, Latin, Tocharian etc.)
> (stative) passive -e:- (Greek), middle -a:- (Armenian, Toch.)
> (subjunctive) subjunctive/future (Latin, Celtic, Tocharian)
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...
>
>
>
>
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