[tied] Re: Trajan's column

george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

> ******GK: If you had filed this at the very beginning,
> we wouldn't have had this conversation... What I see
> here are two Roman soldiers setting fire to a
> fortified settlement from which a group of Dacians are
> scurrying away. These Dacians (the men at any rate)
> seem well-dressed (nobles?) There are about 10 or 11
> figures. I can't discern any weapons, though one of
> them seems to be carrying a purse of some kind.

The guy in center-right of the image has a kind of sharp
weapon in his right hand, but its' ethnicity is unclear.

> I can't discern any animals, though I've looked hard.

Well, this is only a part of the image. To the right, out
of this picture, the Column shows those animals, then some
tree branches, and that's the end of the story. :-)

> On the basis of this depiction I don't think one can argue
> that this group represents people hurrying away from Roman
> domination. They're obviously relocating, but don't seem to
> feel threatened by the soldiers (who are totally ignoring
> them).*******

OK, so we finally agree on that.

>> (MI) The right proportions are very hard to estimate.
>
> *****GK: In any case, the native Dacian culture was
> certainly marginalized. ******

In Dacia Romana that's undoubtedly true. I.H. Crisan says that's
mainly the result of undisputed superiority of Roman culture being
adopted also by local people who remained. Nevertheles, he notes
that some elements of local culture managed to survive for a while.

>>>(GK) [...] since the culture of the Carpi (the major free
>>> Dacian group) is dated from the 2nd to the late 3rd century
>>> in areas east of the borders of Roman Dacia, and the
>>> Carpathian barrows culture (another free Dacian group) also
>>> emerges in the 2nd century.
>>
>> (MI) That's new for me. I.H. Crisan, one of the most reputed
>> archaeologists specialized in Dacian culture, says that while
>> in Dacia Romana, the 2nd century marks a clear discontinuity,
>> with massive penetration of Roman forms combined with Dacian
>> elements, out of its' borders, there is a clear continuity of
>> culture from 2nd to 4th century (but also with some progressive
>> penetration of Roman elements) with respect to the "IIIrd phase"
>> [that is 1st century B.C.-1st century a.D.]. The essential word
>> he uses with respect to free Dacian culture is "maintaining".
>> He doesn't speak about spontaneous emerging of cultures in the
>> free Dacian zone. Can you provide some infos on that topic?!
>
> ******GK: The "Carpathian barrows" culture interests both
> Ukrainian and Romanian archaeologists. Both groups agree that
> it is "Dacian". And Mihailescu-Birliba argues (cf. Acta Musei
> Porolissensis 21(1997), pp. 833-878) that it emerged
> as a result of tribal movements subsequent to the
> Roman conquest of Dacia. As to the Carpi, their
> culture is dated as of the 2nd-3rd cs. by Bichir and
> Ionita (sp..) Interestingly, there is no evidence of
> any movement from Dacia into the area dominated by the
> Costoboci.****

OK, I'll try to give a look on that. My reader feeling was that
Roman conquest of Dacia boosted somehow quantitatively cultures
outside Dacia Romana but marked no obvious discontinuity point,
just normal, smooth evolution of ancient Dacian-like culture.

Regards,
Marius Iacomi