Re: [tied] Re: Got to thinkin' about word order

The partitive genitive is still fully alive in Polish:

<napil/em sie, wody> 'I drank some water [gen.]'
<wypil/em wode,> 'I drank up (all) the water [acc.]'

<daj mi chleba> 'give me some bread [gen.]'
<daj mi ten chleb> 'give me that loaf [acc.]'

It's true that in such sentences the genitive implies indefiniteness, while the accusative often refers to a definite object. Polish also shows another feature often encountered in languages that use the partitive genitive (and, as far as I know, only in such languages): the genitive is used as the direct object (instead of the accusative) with a negated verb and (instead of the nominative) in negative existential sentences ('there's no...').

<mam ksia,z.ke,> 'I've got a book [acc.]'
<nie mam ksia,z.ki> 'I haven't got a book [gen.]'

There are parallel constructions in other Balto-Slavic languages and e.g. in Gothic (and of course French shows close typological parallels).

Piotr

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter P" <no1@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:40 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Got to thinkin' about word order


--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Actually I'm sticking with the more trivial solution: Definite *so
> as the source of the nominative. It should be also noted that the
> genitive (or if available, a special partitive) can be used to
> convey indefiniteness (French /Je bois de l'eau/ using the genitive
> particle /de/ "of, from" for a partitive marker, the equivalent of
> Finnish's /Vetta" juon/ that uses a specific partitive case, all
> to convey "I drink some water" or rather "I drink from the water"
> as we may say in English).
>
Finnish prefered word order is SVO. So most would say 'juon vettä',
unless you really prefer water over other beverages. In that
case 'vettä juon' is prefectly acceptable. With many cases and
endings word order is less important. Finnish not only has a
substantial case system, but also attached particles to indicate
other conditions about the noun.

I drank water from the stream. In Finnish could be any of these:
Join vettä purosta.
Join purosta vettä.
Vettä join purosta.
Vettä purosta join.
Purosta vetta join.
Purosta join vettä.

It just depends on whether the emphasis is on the water, drank, or
stream. If there is no special emphasis intended then most Finns
would use the first sentence which has the same word order as the
English above it, or the second.

I can imagine PIE having more freedom with word order, because of the
greater abundance of endings/particles be they case endings or other
attachments.

Peter



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