From: Paul Schleitwiler
Message: 21101
Date: 2003-04-20
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There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Servian Kurent and Kraniatz
From: "andelkod"
2. Re: Texts in PIE
From: "Glen Gordon"
3. Re: Texts in PIE
From: CeiSerith@...
4. Re: Texts in PIE
From: CeiSerith@...
5. Re: IE genitive
From: Miguel Carrasquer
6. Re: the bee
From: Piotr Gasiorowski
7. Re: the bee
From: "Abdullah Konushevci"
8. Re: the bee
From: "alex_lycos"
9. Re: the bee
From: "alex_lycos"
10. Re[2]: the bee
From: "Brian M. Scott"
11. Re: Tychicus
From: "P&G"
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:23:38 -0000
From: "andelkod"
Subject: Re: Servian Kurent and Kraniatz
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andelkod" wrote:
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jo�o Sim�es Lopes Filho
> wrote:
> > A book of myths mentions the tales of Servian Kurent (a kind of
> devilish trickster god) and giant Kranyatz. What's the origin of
> these characters?
> >
> > Joao SL
>
> The origin of this Carnival figure is unknown. Possibly It could
be
> of Slavic or Celtic-Illyrian origin.
>
> The Kurent (or Korant) is an ancient carnival character
originating
> in pagan times in the Ptuj Plain, Slovenia.
> Kurent makes deafening noise by jumping and thus chases away
winter
> and invites the spring to come into the country.
> The Kurent wears a sheepskin coat, either black or white, and a
> leather belt or a chain with numerous cowbells. He also wears a
> fearsome hat adorned with the horns of cattle
>
> The Kurent is not an isolated occurrence. A number of similar
> figures can be found as part of the traditional customs of
> Medjimurje, Croatia (here they are called Lampe), Baranja,
Croatia
> (Bushe) and all over Serbia and Bulgaria (Kukerei).
>
> It is assumed that the Kurent is a personification of an ancient
> totemic demon, and Bulgarian Kukerei, Croatian Lampe and Bushe are
> believed to have developed from the same belief.
>
> Giant Kranyatz: Kranjec, in meaning, person from Kranjska,
Slovenia
> (Carniola), probably some similar character.
When I reconsider your question, maybe your Kurent is Sorbian Krabat
(German Lusatian Serbs), a character from Sorbian legends very
similar to German legend of Faust.
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:46:52 +0000
From: "Glen Gordon"
Subject: Re: Texts in PIE
Pavel on "hallowed be thy name" (or "may it be hallowed your name"):
>Yes, it should be 3p, but in many languages it is nevertheless translated
>by 2p.
How so? You mean "May you be hallowed your name"??
>>The stem is actually *dHgHom-.
>
>*dHg^Hom-
Using traditional notation, yes. I write *g^H as *gH and the so-called
non-palatal *gH as a uvular *GH. There are no palatals in IE.
>>Looks like they made a compound out of
>>*xoiu- "age" and *?sont "truth"...
>
>Maybe the "-h1sont" part was meant simply as participle, "age-being" in
>the sense "everlasting".
Ah you're right.
This would be my version which everyone is welcome to pick apart:
o: pxter nos, yos nebHesi ?essi
?no:mn toi yagyeto:d
hWre:gyom toi gWmto:d
ultis toi dHehto:d, kWe: nebHesi, te: dHgHom kWe
Dyewi kis nsmebHi nos dinidHo:naxs dyewos dohW,
nsmebHi kWe nos melos telx, te: nos meltrns tlnxmes
me: kWe en perhi ns xa:gs,
?eti loigo:d ns luhdHi
tewom ge hWre:gyom ?esti, megHos, klewos kWe, xoiwos xoyu
?estu
"Thy will be done" is now translated using *dHeh- making it literally
"Will thy may-it-be-done". Now "Give us this day our daily bread" is
translated as "day-at this to-us our bread daily give." The part
with "Lead us not into temptation" now uses *xag- "to lead, herd",
conjugated in the 2ps aorist. I'm not sure where *loigos comes from,
meaning "evil" supposedly. I agree that *teuhos doesn't seem like the
best translation for "power" which can be directly conveyed with *megHos.
Lastly, */xoiwos xoyu/ is supposed to mean "age-[gen] age" ("for ages of
ages), translating "forever and ever".
- gLeN
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:38:19 EDT
From: CeiSerith@...
Subject: Re: Texts in PIE
I have a question on PIE phonetic representation (and likely PIE
phonetics). The symbols being used here for the laryngeals are ?, x, and H
(have I left any out?). How does those relate to the H1, etc. way of
representing them?
David Fickett-Wilbar
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:43:56 EDT
From: CeiSerith@...
Subject: Re: Texts in PIE
In a message dated 4/18/2003 4:53:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pavel.adamek@... writes:
> It seems that most of members of this list
> is not interested in translating into PIE
> and that they consider such activity
> to be rather conlanging than serious linguistic.
> I hope that this thread is not much off-topic.
> Or should we create a separate maillist
> for this purpose?
>
That's what I'm most interested in, but I have nothing to contribute
except questions, and I get the impression that some are annoyed by those
questions, so I don't ask them often. I've developed quite a list of things
I would love to have translated into PIE (knowing full well all the problems
and uncertainties such a project would include); if anyone is interested in
helping me, I would love it if they would e-mail me directly.
David Fickett-Wilbar
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:55:42 +0200
From: Miguel Carrasquer
Subject: Re: IE genitive
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:58:35 +0200 (MET DST), Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen
wrote:
>The problem was: Why does the gen.sg. in *-aH2-os
>which belongs to the class of "a:"-stems whose stem-forming part consists
>of the thematic vowel *-e/o- + the collective marker *-H2 not reduce the
>gen. desinence to the zero-grade form /-s/, given the rule that everything
>following the thematic vowel appears in its reduced form?
What rule is that? As far as I can see, there are unreduced /e/'s and
/o/'s in the masculine thematic G.sg. (*-o-syo), D.sg. (*-o-ei),
Ab.sg. (*-o-ot), perhaps I sg. (*-o-eh1), N.pl. (*-o-es), Gpl.
(*-o-om) and D/Ab pl. (*-o-bhyos).
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:50:24 +0200
From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Subject: Re: the bee
----- Original Message -----
From: "alex_lycos"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:04 PM
Subject: [tied] the bee
> The Rom. word is "albin�" and cannot derive from any Latin form.
It cannot derive, but wee see how it looks: it seems there is the same rule as in Latin "rv" versus thracian "rb", Latin "lv" versus Thracian "lb". Cf. DEX "albin�"= from Latin "alvina"= beehive.
This has nothing to do with Thracian. Lat. -v- > Rom -b- after a liquid as in silva:ticu- > s�lbatic 'wild', corvu- > corb 'raven' or cervu- > cerb 'stag'. Rom. albin� not only _can_, but _does_ come from , an adjectival derivative of 'beehive', like from . Bees live in hives, you know.
> Since Piotr seems to be the adept of Decev
I'm nobody's disciple in this respect. I'm trying to reach some kind of conclusion using my own grey matter.
> seeing the Albanians as being the thracians or better said, the nord thracians (dacian)
You know very well from our earlier exchanges that I don't regard Dacian as a northern form of Thracian but as an independent language. I connect Albanian (and the non-Romance substrate in Romanian) specifically with Dacian, not with Thracian.
> I should like to ask as follow: -we see the Rom. Word is not like the Albanian word. If this word "blet�" is an inherited word in Albanian, then it must belong to the language of the Ilirians or to the one of the Thracians. Accepting the Albanian word is the thracian one, then the question is, to which language belongs the Romanian word in this case?
If you mean , it comes straight from Latin, of course.
Piotr
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:39:55 -0000
From: "Abdullah Konushevci"
Subject: Re: the bee
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alex_lycos"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:04 PM
> Subject: [tied] the bee
>
>
> > The Rom. word is "albin�" and cannot derive from any Latin form.
> It cannot derive, but wee see how it looks: it seems there is the
same rule as in Latin "rv" versus thracian "rb", Latin "lv" versus
Thracian "lb". Cf. DEX "albin�"= from Latin "alvina"= beehive.
>
> This has nothing to do with Thracian. Lat. -v- > Rom -b- after a
liquid as in silva:ticu- > s�lbatic 'wild', corvu- > corb 'raven' or
cervu- > cerb 'stag'. Rom. albin� not only _can_, but _does_ come
from , an adjectival derivative of 'beehive', like
from . Bees live in hives, you know.
>
> > Since Piotr seems to be the adept of Decev
>
> I'm nobody's disciple in this respect. I'm trying to reach some
kind of conclusion using my own grey matter.
>
> > seeing the Albanians as being the thracians or better said, the
nord thracians (dacian)
>
> You know very well from our earlier exchanges that I don't regard
Dacian as a northern form of Thracian but as an independent
language. I connect Albanian (and the non-Romance substrate in
Romanian) specifically with Dacian, not with Thracian.
>
> > I should like to ask as follow: -we see the Rom. Word is not
like the Albanian word. If this word "blet�" is an inherited word in
Albanian, then it must belong to the language of the Ilirians or to
the one of the Thracians. Accepting the Albanian word is the
thracian one, then the question is, to which language belongs the
Romanian word in this case?
>
> If you mean , it comes straight from Latin, of course.
>
> Piotr
************
The same phenomenon /-rv-/ > /-rb-/ and /-lv-/ > /-lb-/ had been
noticed also in Albanian loans from Latin: servire > sh�rbej 'to
serve', corvus > korb 'raven' and salvare > sh�lboj 'to salvage, to
liberate'.
About the Albanian blet� 'bee' I like to share the meaning of Jokl
and Hamp that in cultural lexicon, this word is comparable with
Greek m�litta and, because of accent, it can't be a Greek loan, as
�abej had thinking through the shif of accent.
Konushevci
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:12:48 +0200
From: "alex_lycos"
Subject: Re: the bee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski"
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] the bee
----- Original Message -----
From: "alex_lycos"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:04 PM
Subject: [tied] the bee
> The Rom. word is "albin�" and cannot derive from any Latin form
It cannot derive, but wee see how it looks: it seems there is the same
rule as in Latin "rv" versus thracian "rb", Latin "lv" versus Thracian
"lb". Cf.. DEX "albin�"= from Latin "alvina"= beehive
This has nothing to do with Thracian. Lat. -v- > Rom -b- after a liquid
as in silva:ticu- > s�lbatic 'wild', corvu- > corb 'raven' or cervu- >
cerb 'stag'. Rom. albin� not only _can_, but _does_ come from ,
an adjectival derivative of 'beehive', like from
. Bees live in hives, you know
Excuse me but here you are wrong. "Marin" is not inherited but a reent
loand. One problem of the IE people is that they think to admit semantic
shifts which are possible from IE until Latin & Greek times but are not
anymore to admit from Year 100 AC until today. As a matter of fact none
of the therminology which has to do with the bees seems to derive from
Latin.
Maybe you will have the explanation why behives became bee in Romanian
but the hives is that funny word "stup". The word for bee-farming,
"prisac�" is too of unknown etymology.
About Latin "cervus" I ashowed before the thracian "cerbatis" and
"cerbula" , in so far it is better to be a bit cautious keeping the idea
Latin cervus > Rom. cerb:-)
> Since Piotr seems to be the adept of Decev
I'm nobody's disciple in this respect. I'm trying to reach some kind of
conclusion using my own grey matter
> seeing the Albanians as being the thracians or better said, the nord
thracians (dacian)
You know very well from our earlier exchanges that I don't regard Dacian
as a northern form of Thracian but as an independent language. I connect
Albanian (and the non-Romance substrate in Romanian) specifically with
Dacian, not with Thracian
I guess there is a big mistake for seing Dacian as a different language
as Thracian. I can just speak about dialectal forms but they have been
the same language. My pleasure to hear to you which is which here.
> I should like to ask as follow: -we see the Rom. Word is not like the
Albanian word. If this word "blet�" is an inherited word in Albanian,
then it must belong to the language of the Ilirians or to the one of the
Thracians. Accepting the Albanian word is the thracian one, then the
question is, to which language belongs the Romanian word in this case?
If you mean , it comes straight from Latin, of course
Piotr
Like, stup, prisac�, matc�, roi, mied, miere, facure and everything
which has to do with bees:.A comparative analise of Latin words and Rom.
words into this respect will show you much more.))
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:16:20 +0200
From: "alex_lycos"
Subject: Re: the bee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abdullah Konushevci"
************
The same phenomenon /-rv-/ > /-rb-/ and /-lv-/ > /-lb-/ had been
noticed also in Albanian loans from Latin: servire > sh�rbej 'to
serve', corvus > korb 'raven' and salvare > sh�lboj 'to salvage, to
liberate'
About the Albanian blet� 'bee' I like to share the meaning of Jokl
and Hamp that in cultural lexicon, this word is comparable with
Greek m�litta and, because of accent, it can't be a Greek loan, as
�abej had thinking through the shif of accent
Konushevci
The word is common to Rom. & Alb. " Serb, " "Serbie". the another one ,
to save, is not inherited in Rom.
"salvare" is a recent loan. The word for "slava"= cruTa, sc�pa, if I am
not too wrong."A elibera" seems to be too a recent loan, but sincerly I
am not too sure here for these words:
liber, libertate, eliberare,, it seems to me they have all the "french
air" here:))
Alex
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:57:08 -0400
From: "Brian M. Scott"
Subject: Re[2]: the bee
At 8:12:48 PM on Friday, April 18, 2003, alex_lycos wrote:
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski"
>> Rom. albin� not only _can_, but _does_ come from
>> , an adjectival derivative of 'beehive',
>> like from . Bees live in hives, you know
> Excuse me but here you are wrong. "Marin" is not inherited
> but a reent loand.
He isn't wrong. He didn't say anything about . He
simply pointed out that _in_Latin_ there are other examples
of derivations parallel to that of from .
Brian
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:22:47 +0100
From: "P&G"
Subject: Re: Tychicus
> taceo, -ui, -itum, --ere "schweige"
> idg. Basis *take:i, in "taceo". (Walde-Hoffmann)
Pokorny doesn't do much better, offering *tak, take:(i) (p 1055).
Rix is more believable with *pteh2k (p446) "sich drucken" = bow oneself,
humble onesefl
He connects it with Greek pto:sso: (shrink from) and pte:sso: (crouch from
fear of; scare); Armenian t'ak'eaw (hide oneself) as well as the Latin
and OHG / Gothic.
The initial *pt- he justifies from Klingenschmitt " Das altarmenische
Verbum" pp 70, 78, 84, 99.
Rix gives no other verbs beginning with pt-.
Pokorny gives one noun, *ptel(e)ya: the name of a tree (Greek, Latin,
Armenian).
Mann (who uses a lot of Armenian and Albanian) offers 5, the first 4 from
WP.: *pta: < *pet, *ptelewa: (a tree), *pterom (wing), *ptersna:
(ankle), *ptu:lis (armenian only, = weak). He gives *tak as the source of
Latin taceo, and connects it to Ir tacvhtaim = choke.
Latin verbs with -a- vocalism have a number of different origins, usually
developing the -a- within Italic. There's work to be done there, someone!
Peter
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