altamix wrote:
>thus it can be some of them here which can be wrong:-)
I guess you've missed roughly 75% of what I was
talkin' about. Maybe later on...
>And "n" seems to be nasal just sometimes, this is why I asked
>"which one, m or n?"
In order to understand what I'm talking about, just
imagine, try to imagine, that I'm talking neither of M nor
of N, but I'm talking of some nasal sound for which
in Romanian normal writing there is no graphem, but
for which in Polish writing you have that cedilla attached
to vowels such as /a/ and /e/ and for which in French
writing there is the convention that in certain situations
similar nasals have to be read in written particles
such as "an, am, en, em, in".
How these nasals are pronounced (MMMMMMMM,
NNNNNNNN) you gotta hear with your own ears.
But be sure that this kind of nasalisation you can
easily perform yourself either keeping your lips
pressed or keeping them asunder -- it doesn't matter.
Just understand that this sound (or these sounds)
are no Ms or Ns. It is only us who assimilate to
M or N. The second important thing is that __in
Romanian__ this sound is possible only if it's
immediately followed by such consonants as
P, B, C, T (tampit, bomba, adanc, tzanc, tanc,
bont, atent). Of course, in such situations as these...
> Words like nana, dinu, pana, luna,
... you mentioned above, it is impossible for any
Romanian to pronounce that nasal sound I am
talking about. Exactly because of the following
_VOWELS_ (it doesn't matter which of them:
a, e, i , o, u, ã, â/î).
>I understand your point of view.
You don't! The proof that you don't resides in
the following lines:
>But there is a big difference between
>"m" and "n" and you can take a look at
>the restrictions I gave here for "mC" and "nC" .
Again (and for good): I don't refer in this "nasal"
situation to M or N, but to a NASAL SOUND for
which, in normal/conventional Romanian writing
we don't have, so we don't use, any special,
separate, sign/letter. Moreover, there is no
graphical convention for the rendition of this sound
in Romanian because the Romanian kind of
nasals are of far lesser importance than the
counterparts in languages such as French and
Polish. So, most of the Romanian native speakers
aren't even aware of these nasals -- the phenomenon
isn't described as such in school (AFAIK).
But there is a significant occurrence: children
in elementary school as well as all people who
never manage to become literate will forever make
mistakes exactly where the nasalization I'm referring
to is used: they won't be ever sure where to insert
an M or an N or any of them at all in those clusters
I mentioned again above, whenever they try to write.
(And I wouldn't be amazed if some linguist explained
us the Romanian popular form of the name
Constantin -> Costandin as a consequence of the
same phenomenon: nasalisation and disappearance
of the N-like sound in "con-", which in the original
Latin word is the well-known prefix.)
> None will say "câmpta" but "cânta".
Let me use an ad-hoc sign for that nasal sound I
refer to: #. Then, the nasal pronunciation (which is
the traditional & daily one) is "câ#ta". The other one,
"cânta", with a clear N included, is the secondary
pronunciation -- even if almost everybody perceives
it as being the real standard one. By the same
token:
cu#para, ate#t, compete#t (even co#pete#t),
blâ#d/blâ#zi, avâ#t, adâ#c, mâ#z, prâ#z; then
lots of words with the prefixes in- and în-, where
N can be replaced by #, e.g. i#stitut. Hence people
with poor writing skills (dyslexic or not) wrongly
write *istitut, istitutzie (as though it were... Italian!
"istituto" :-).
(In other words: it is the fault of Romanian ministry
of education and of the linguists that generations
after generations are not taught that the Romanian
phonology comprises some additional elements.
But not big fault, agreed, since in Romanian it
doesn't matter >today< if you pronounce as above
(I mean the cases with #) or with genuine Ms and
Ns.)
>It speaks for itself there is a BIG
>difference between 2m" and "n" I guess.
I wasn't referring a iota to differences between
M and N. I was referring to a differen topic. Sorry
to disappoint ya.
I insisted on this aspect a bit, since I think it might
be interesting for some cybalist members who
might be interested in the Romanian language.
>Alex
George