Re: Germanic Scythians?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > On the mix of Iazyges and native Germani
> >
> > http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.8.xii.html
> >
> > this is ca. 50 AD. As I thought, native Germanic
> > infantry, Iranian
> > cavalry.
>
> ******GK: Certainly not "as you thought". The Iazyges
> were the recently (ca. 20 AD) relocated Metanastae,
> who occupied the plains of the Alfold (across from
> Roman Pannonia) whence they had dislodged the Dacians
> (cf. Pliny). They were Vannius' allies, not his
> subjects.

As I implied too. Voluntary cooperation towards a common goal (but in
a few generations they would merge).

>There is no evidence that they brought any
> Bastarneans with them. This has nothing whatever to do
> with your "Odin" hallucinations.*******
> >
> > BTW I wonder if Adorsi = Aorsi?
>
> *****GK: Indeed. Most of them were still east of the
> Don in 50 AD, though some groups had crossed it
> towards the West, and had become the ruling class of a
> revived Scythian state.******
> >
> > And check
> >
> > http://www.euratlas.com/time/nea0001.htm
> >
> > Obviously to get from Tanakvisl (going by the name a
> > fork in the Don,
> > thus close to the mouth of the river)
>
> *****GK: The Tanakvisl does no refer to the mouth of
> the river, but either to the area including its main
> tributaries, or, much more preferably, to the area
> where the Don is closest to the Volga (some
> geographers confused the two rivers because the
> Don-Volga portage was easy there).******

Danish Kvissel (kw < tw) in several locations = branch in navigable
channel, e.g. in Odense fjord. Thus a place where the Don branches.
Thus in the delta (but I don't have a detailed map; are there
branches upriver?).

> to Thuringia
> > you cross
> > Bastarnean territory (I suppose the won't matter too
> > much for the
> > location of various peoples that the map is 50 years
> > off).
>
> *******GK: If you stick to your source, you will note
> that "Odin and company" first travelled from "Asgard"
> WEST to "Gardariki". Gardariki, in Snorri's time was
> Kyivan Rus' and its associates ("the land of
> strongholds"), including the important (for the Old
> Norse) stronghold of Holmgard (Novgorod).

Your interpretation of Snorri implies he had no historical knowledge
at all.

>Here we
> should read WEST as "north and west", north along the
> Volga then west eventually reaching the Holmgard area.

Why? Obviously west, then south won't take you from Tanaquisl to
Saxland. Something's got to give,right. Why not correct the 'south'
direction instead (Snorri perhaps thought of Holmgard here?)?

> This route, well known to the Norse, already existed
> at the time of Jordanes.==

That's not the direct path from Southern Scandinavia.

>Afterwards, "Odin and
> company" went SOUTH to Saxland. This means (in order
> to make any geographical sense at all) that they
> travelled from the area of Novgorod to northern
> Germany (via the Baltic).

Assuming (as you, and Snorri? do) that Gardariki was Holmgard.

>That's the only possibility
> if you're going SOUTH from Gardariki. So even on
> Snorri's geography the Bastarneans cannot be involved
> in "Odin's trek". Pritsak thought (and this is
> possible) that Snorri was describing the route from
> Khazaria to Scandinavia, with "Odin" representing the
> impulse

This is bizarre. An "impulse", not people travelling?

>which resulted in the reform of the futhark.
> But even so, Snorri's account confuses many things:
> Troy legends, Norse explorations along the Volga,
> Gothic lore perhaps. There is nothing "historical"
> about it. And your dating of it, plus everything else
> you've advanced (esp. the Bastarneans) is naive and
> ridiculous beyond belief. As for the Osi, they were a
> Pannonian tribe, which paid tribute to the Iranian
> Iazyges.

Source?

>But I suppose that hallucinations are at a
> premium here.*******
> >

But cf Snorri's prologue:

Ok þeir gefa eigi stað ferðinni, fyrr en þeir koma norðr í þat land,
er nú er kallat Saxland

"They didn't stop until they arrived north in the land now called
Saxland".

Torsten