--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Michael J Smith <lookwhoscross-
eyednow@...> wrote:
> Torsten, you wrote:
> > I've waged several battles here in cybalist that Snorri's (and
> > other's) account of an origin in the Pontic area should be taken
as
> > it stands. They would then have been driven out by Pompey's
> > campaigns
> > in that area and settled in Thuringia, where they mixed 50 years
> > later with a massive influx of Bastarnian (thus Germanic)-
speaking
> > peoples driven out of Pannonia by Augustus' campaigns there, and
> > picked up that language. From there they subjugated Germany and
> > Scandinavia, until then Old-Germanic and Celtic speaking.
>
> Torsten, but doesn't Snorri mention that the Aesir migrating
from the
> east brought their Germanic speech with them to Northern Europe?
> (although he doesn't refer to their speech as "Germanic" of
course).
Alvissmál mentions
http://www.beige.org/giltweasel/stuff/old_norse/alvissmal3.txt
verse 16
that "men call it 'sol' [that is the North Germanic word for sun],
gods [ie. aesir, that is, the people that invaded Scandinavia at the
time and brought inhumation burial with them] call it 'sunna' [that
is the West Germanic word for sun]". Thus the Aesir spoke a West
Germanic-like language.
In other words (as I see it), the Aesir (= Alans?) were Iranian-
speaking, moved to Saxland (ie. Thuringia), where they were known as
Hermunduri, or "Tur-people", were joined with an lot of Batarnian
(thus Germanic) speaking refugees 50 years later, picked up their
Germanic creole, and under the pressure of the Roman conquest of the
land between the Rhine and the Elbe (thus also Thuringia) moved first
to Fyn in Denmark, then Sweden, where their Germanic creole replaced
the Old Germanic of the area, apart from a few words ('sol' etc, and
similar words particular to North Germanic today).
According to Hunibald, the people that came from the east changed
their language during their sojourn in Germania. His work is
generally considered a forgery, but he has an interesting detail
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/013_16.html
He uses the name Wechtam of a holy minstrel and singer, a name
reminiscent of the Old Norse name Vegtam-r, Odin uses of him self,
but also of Vakhtang, the Georgian (I think it was) version of
Iranian V&r&Tragna. Georgia is in the vicinity of the old kingdom of
Vani, where I suggested before that the Vanir came from. Now how
would a forger come up with a coincidence like that?
>He
> even mentions that in English there are place names that show
traces of a
> different language (I am assuming British Celtic).
>If the "Aesir" were
> Scythians from the Pontic, they wouldn't be Germanic-speakers.
Right.
>I wonder
> if Snorri is hinting at this Celtic speech he finds traces of in
England
> being once spoken over all Northwestern Europe, and Germanic
speakers
> coming from the east (at maybe a very early date?).
I don't think he hints that, but I think it was the case. And
Germanic came around 10 BCE.
>
> Then again, could Germanic speakers have originally been Scythians
in
> appearance and culture in the east, and brought (maybe a small
number of
> them) Germanic speech to Celtic speakers (Who would later have
become the
> "Germans").
I think all of today's Germanic languages are descended from the
language of the Bastarnians, a tribe which is attested in Poland
around 150 BCE, but influenced (Germanic shift) by Iranian speech
habits. As someone commented, they are always mentioned in connection
with some other people.
>After all didn't Tacitus mention that the Germans were like
> the Gauls before the Gauls were conquered by the Romans?
Because the inhabitants of the land later known as Germania were
Celts.
Torsten
> >
> >
> >