From: Patrick C. Ryan
Message: 19283
Date: 2003-02-26
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...>
To: "Patrick C. Ryan" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 2:30 PM
Subject: Re[4]: [tied] English "voiced" stops
> At 2:15:52 PM on Tuesday, February 25, 2003, Patrick C. Ryan
> wrote:
>
> >> 'Very little' includes 'none' as a special case.
>
> > Not in my dialect or logic. "very little" means that there
> > is "some".
>
> It can in mine as well, but not in 'Most people have very
> little voicing going on while the lips are closed during
> either "pie" or "buy"'. A little sensitivity to context
> and overall sense is useful.
[PCR]
Well, I am sorry but I can see no reason to make an exception in the interpretation of plain English because of the context. Whatever context, a statement either makes sense or it does not.
> >>>> Most speakers of American English have no voicing
> >>>> during the closure of so-called voiced stops in
> >>>> sentence initial position.
>
> > Are you prepared to assure me that "most" here means 50+%?
>
> No; I'm not a mind-reader. I think it very likely, however,
> that that is how Ladefoged meant it, since his English is
> not obviously idiosyncratic.
[PCR]
Well, I do not think that a scientist should use "most" unless he is prepared to quantify it. My gut feeling, from what I have seen of his writing so far, is that the figures to quantify it do not exist, and that this is an offhand impressionistic (and possibly inaccurate) musing rather than the statement of a demonstrable fact.
> >>> Ladefoged is simply wrong on "most" though, I admit, it
> >>> obviously happens in ethnic enclaves.
>
> Once again: Of what kind(s)?
[PCR]
California has many Asian communities, the native languages of whom are characterized by voiceless unaspirated and aspirated stops (for example, many (if not virtually all) dialects of Chinese). I will bet that you can, just through general knowledge, come up with a few more.
> >> And why is your view to be preferred to that of a
> >> specialist with decades of experience?
>
> > Experts assured us the world was flat some years ago.
>
> Not in the last 2000+ years.
[PCR]
Even today, there are Christian fanatics who assert that it is flat, Bible "experts", that is.
The real point, however, is that not all experts are expert. The scholastic community being what it is, personal friendships and other non-scientific considerations play an important part in whether a given "expert" is called to task for sloppiness or inaccuracy.
Pat
PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)