Re: Re[2]: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?

Dear Brian:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...>
To: "Patrick C. Ryan" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?


> At 4:02:07 PM on Monday, February 24, 2003, Patrick C. Ryan
> wrote:
>
> >>>A voiceless /d/ is one where the voice does not occur
> >>>during the entire time it takes to implement the phoneme.
>
> >> And a voiced /d/ is one where the voice occurs during the
> >> entire time it takes to implement the phoneme.
>
> > First off, what language has a "voiceless /d/" and how
> > would it contrast with a "voiceless /t/"?
>
> Icelandic. Stefán Einarsson, _Icelandic_, p. 13:
>
> _d_ is always voiceless. Initially it sounds like English
> _d_ [d]: _dagur_ [da:qYr.] day. Medially and finally it
> sounds more like _t_ (French _t_) and is marked [d.].

[PCR]
This sounds like a possible former student of Ladefoged. What in God's name does "sounds like English _d_ mean??? Since we have determined that English /d/ is not voiceless (in most dialects), this description is inaccurate at best, ignorant at worst.

> E.g., <døkk> 'dark' (nom.sing.fem.) [tøhk].

[PCR]
If Icelandic initial /d/ sounds like English /d/, then why is it being notated as "t"?

It looks like Icelandic initial [d] is simple an unaspirated /t/.

Icelandic /t/
> has several allophones: [tH] initially, in /VtV/, /Vtj/,
> /Vtr/, and /Vtv/, medially after voiced consonants, and
> finally after a vowel or voiced consonant; [t] after a
> voiceless fricative, liquid, or nasal and often after long
> vowels. So far as I can discover, this last is
> indistinguishable from /d/ after a long vowel, though I
> believe that /V:d/ occurs only in compounds (e.g., <hádegi>
> 'noon, midday').

Pat

PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)