Re[2]: [tied] English "voiced" stops

At 12:17:54 AM on Tuesday, February 25, 2003, Patrick C.
Ryan wrote:

>> Ladefoged, A Course in Phonetics, p. 50:

>> Most people have very little voicing going on while the
>> lips are closed during either "pie" or "buy."

> If this is a sample of Ladefoged, I suggest respectfully
> that other sources might profitably be consulted.

> No one that I know of has ever suggested that there is
> "little voicing" or any voicing during the closure of
> English initial /p/. This is either inaccurate or purely
> poor exposition.

Presumably Ladefoged expects the reader to understand that
it's a statement about what the pronunciation of 'pie' and
'buy' have in common, namely, very little voicing while the
lips are closed. 'Very little' includes 'none' as a special
case.

>> Most speakers of American English have no voicing during
>> the closure of so-called voiced stops in sentence initial
>> position.

> Again, "most" needs quantification.

At the very least it means 'more than half'. Further
quantification would be nice but is hardly necessary to make
the point.

> Ladefoged is simply wrong on "most" though, I admit, it
> obviously happens in ethnic enclaves.

Of what kind(s)? And why is your view to be preferred to
that of a specialist with decades of experience?

Brian