Re: [tied] Help with ban_Banat

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
...
> > Old Bulgar word: BAN – a military deputy of a region
> > Closest analogies: BAN – a military commander
> > (Eastern Caucasian); from
> > "BO" – an army (Eastern Caucasian)
> > Old Bulgar word: ZOAPAN – a court title
> > Closest analogies: Zhoopan – an official (Eastern
> > Caucasian); Chupan
> > (Sogdian) from fsu-pana (Sanskrit)
>
> *****GK: (1)What exactly is "East Caucasian"?


Dagestani. Dobrev uses an Avaro-Russian dictionary (M., 1929), a
Lezgino-Russian dictionary (M., 1966), and A comparative dictionary
of the Dagestani languages of Khajdakov (M., 1965)

(2) A
> couple of ideas. "Pan" from "Bayan" seems highly
> unlikely because of the original "imperial"
> connotation of the latter. Unlike "Knyaz" which could
> apply to smaller units (and was borrowed into Romanian
> dialects as "knes" I believe).


'Kanasubigi', the title used by Omurtag and Malamir in the VIII c.,
has been interpretted as 'kanas uvigi', 'kanas' connected to
the 'k&naz', via Slavic, but there are difficulties, because the
Avars in Pannonia had had a similar title.

=== The strong
> Hunno-Bulgar contacts with the Iranic world
> (Asparukh's own name?) make a borrowing of their "Ban"
> quite probable (I don't believe it's that widespread,
> if at all, in Turkic languages?).*****


What makes you think Bulgar was Turkic in the first place? Why not
speak of "Bulgar contacts with the Turkic world" instead?...
I can't provide the source for 'ban' in Bulgar. 'Zhupan', however, is
well attested - in stone inscriptions, inscription on cups, etc. N.
Sims-Williams, in a recent study of the borrowings in Bactrian,
classified the Bactrian 'sopano' as 'pre-Turkish'. Here is an excerpt:

"Finally, Bactrian swpano, the title of a minor official, may well
correspond to Turkish chopan '(assistant to) a village headman',
proto-Bulgar zoapan, etc., Byzantine Gk. zoupanos, but this word is
not attested in Turkish until the 11th century and its ultimate
origin is quite obscure."


Regards,
Vassil