Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?

Dear Miguel:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?


> On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:02:07 -0600, "Patrick C. Ryan"
> <proto-language@...> wrote:

> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
> >To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 12:01 PM
> >Subject: Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?

> >> >A voiceless /d/ is one where the voice does not occur during the
> >> >entire time it takes to implement the phoneme.
> >>
> >> And a voiced /d/ is one where the voice occurs during the entire time
> >> it takes to implement the phoneme.
> >
> >[PCR]
> > First off, what language has a "voiceless /d/" and how would it contrast with a "voiceless /t/"?
> >
> >Secondly, why is it justified to term a stop voiced only if "voice occurs during the entire time ..."? The linguists you are quoting make a careful distinction between "full" and "partial" voicing. Why is that not possible for you?
>
> First off, "voiceless /d/" was Glen's phrasing, so you should really
> ask him. For English, the term "devoiced /d/" or "partially devoiced
> /d/" is more current.

[PCR]
Well, you did not see fit to answer my questions above. Whether you or Glen have used "voiceless /d/", YOU have certainly written that English initial [d] is voiceless --- not once but repeatedly. Does this "partially devoiced" now mean that you finally realize it is "(partially) voiced"?

>In any case, the International Phonetic
> Alphabet has a symbol for "voiceless /d/" (d with ring under), and
> some languages distinguish between such a voiceless /d./ and /t/ (e.g.
> Icelandic).

[PCR]
Again, that is no answer. How does this so-called voiceless /d./ differ from an unaspirated /t/?

<snip>

> >> (*) And the UCLA data show that even that's not entirely accurate for
> >> many speakers of AE, who make all the appropriate gestures for voicing
> >> the stop between voiced sounds, except for actually vibrating the
> >> vocal chords.

[PCR]
If you will forgive me, your paraphrases leave something to be desired. The authorities quoted by Piotr dispute that. Secondly, I am a little cautious of accepting without question any data from California which is overrun by non-native English speakers.

> >[PCR]
> >Your "many" is awfully vague. How many speakers of America English actually do this?
>
> Ladefoged on p. 50 of A Course In Phonetics says "most".

[PCR]
As meaningless ans "many" unless quantified by dialect and area.

Pat

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