Re: [tied] Laryngeal theory as an unnatural

I think there is a tendensy in modern Germanic languages to shift
from a voised - unvoiced -opposition to an aspirated -unaspirated -
opposition.

I think English is in this transformation process.

In Scandinavian, Danish, has by now an aspirated - unaspirated
opposition.

In Norwegian that is more conservative, the opposition is still
voiced-unvoiced, and aspiration or not aspiration counts very little.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:21:51 -0600, "Patrick C. Ryan"
> <proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> >[PCR2]
> >While I respect your imaginative work in other areas, it seems to
me that 'voice', if it is to have any value as a defining term at
all, must be used in a consistent way when applied to any language.
>
> That's exactly what I'm doing. I define "voice" as vibration of the
> vocal chords. English /d/, in initial or final position, and for
many
> speakers even between voiced sounds, has no vocal chord vibration,
so
> it is not voiced.
>
> >I think your reference to Mandarin is probably a 'typo'. The
system of stop contrasts in Mandarin is unaspirated vs. aspirated,
both voiceless.
>
> The typo is called Hanyu Pinyin.
>
> >> >At the moment of closure, it is (I think) physically impossible
for voicing to be present -- before or after but not during.
Therefore, I question the so-called "voiced" French /d/.
> >>
> >> It requires some extra effort, but it's certainly not impossible
(my
> >> Spanish and Dutch /d/'s are voiced). See the spectrogram on p.
51 of
> >> TSOTWL.
> >
> >[PCR2]
> >Sorry, I still think it is a virtual impossibility.
>
> It's not a matter of opinion. Acoustic phonetics is a branch of
> applied phyisics.
>
> >If that is not so in this instance, would you kindly explain to me
how passive relaxation of the cheeks has anything to do with the
auditorily perceived buzz we call voicing?
>
> It has to do with pressure. During the occlusion of a stop, the air
> is blocked and cannot pass through the oral cavity. To prevent the
> pressure from building up and stopping the vibration of the vocal
> chords, extra space must be made behind the closure. Relaxation of
> the cheeks does the trick, at least for labial and coronal stops
(this
> explains why /b/ and /d/ are more stable than /g/). Other tactics
may
> include, as I said, moving the tongue forwards, lowering the cheek,
> lowering the larynx. The most effective strategy would be opening
up
> the nasal cavity, but that has the side effect of turning /d/
into /n/
> (an effortlessly voiced sound even in English).
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...