From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 17534
Date: 2003-01-12
----- Original Message -----
From: <MrCaws@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Medieval Dragons, dog/snake, Greek Dragons
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Torsten:
> > >When Sundaland perished in volcanic eruptions, the dragons in panic
> > >came out of the forest and people had to fight them too, as if it
> > >wasn't bad enough already (hello, Hollywood, are you guys
> listening?)
> >
> > His condition is getting worse. Now on to Cort...
> >
> >
> > Cort:
> > >True, but the composite animals may have been put together in order
> > >to create a fantastic monster without having to describe
> > >characteristics outside of cultural experience.
> > >[...]
> > >OK. I do agree that the dragon and the water are probably
> connected.
> >
> > The latter comment negates the former, so, as I had already
> elaborated,
> > the dragon is a symbolic, not just a fantastical or fear-inspiring,
> > construct initially representing rain, and as you've discovered for
> > yourself, this particular connection is too common a motif to
> ignore.
> >
> > I can't deny that there may have been some desire to create awe-
> > inspiring creatures out of rampant imagination but this is not
> > the main inspiration of these ideas. The main inspiration is from
> > abstract symbolism, the one thing that us Homo Sapiens are really
> good
> > at.
> >
> >
> > >However, I am not in favor of reducing a mythological character to
> a
> > >natural phenomenon like "water" or the "clouds" ala Max Muller.
> > >[...]
> > >I think this kind of reductionist interpretation can blind us to
> the
> > >bigger picture.
> >
> > There's a difference between ludicrous reductionist theories that
> > ignore the facts, and interpretation of mythological symbols based
> _on_
> > the facts. All creatures, gods and icons can and SHOULD be
> interpreted
> > if their functions and origins are to be understood properly. I
> don't
> > think defining the dragon's initial function in the mythological
> cosmos
> > as the "bringer of rain" is offbase at all.
> >
> > Granted, it is overlayed with millenia of new symbols that
> redefined its
> > role in later belief systems and so you're very right to state that
> my
> > explanation "does not explain all of the significant elements of the
> > dragon myth, especially in western myth". It wasn't meant to; it was
> > meant only to explain the origin of the dragon's form and function.
> >
> > However, I think we can start with the rain connection as a strong
> base
> > and work our way out from there.
> >
> >
> > >Couple of questions: What is up with dragons guarding sacred
> treasure?
> >
> > In honesty, that's a lesser connection at best and we're straying
> from
> > the core of the dragon's original function. However, it probably
> stems
> > all the way back to at least the Indo-Europeans. Remember that
> there is
> > the story of the three-headed serpent stealing the cattle from the
> hero.
> > Now replace "cattle" with "treasure" and you start to get it.
>
> How do we know which is the "lesser" motif and which is the "Core"
> one? As you mentioned, the treasure guarding motif is an old one.
> ladon and the Hesperides, the dragon guardign the golden fleece.
> Ditto with the hero slaying the dragon-We can trace that to
> Babylonian days with Marduk's battle with the Mushushu dragon that
> Tiamat summoned in the Enuma Elish. Some consider Tiamat to be a
> dragon as well. If so, she is certainly associated with the waters,
> thoughin theis casase the primordial salt-waters rather than rain.
> On the other hand I do agree there are instances
>
> Three-headed serpent cattle thiefHmm...What about Cacus, a local
> Roman fire-breathing cattle-stealing giant?
>
>
> . Here we have dragon/giant tratis overlapping, and the classic tale
> of the cattle theft
>
>
> >
> > >And by what means were they transformed into demonic hero-fodder in
> > >Medieval Europe? Breathing fire?
> >
>
> But the dragon slayer motif is already present in the stories of
> Cadmus adn Jason, Ladon
>
>
> > The later reinterpretation of dragons as demons is simple to explain
> > since it stems from Christianity where the Devil deceived Eve in
> > the form of a serpent in the book of Genesis. From that, the serpent
> > came to be a demonic symbol in the minds of all Christians. That's
> > probably one reason why there are only three Mayan codices left,
> thanks
> > to those damn pyromaniac priests bent on converting natives to their
> > silly serpentophobic cult. The Mayans were innocently using the
> > serpent imagery in connection with Kukulkan, not the Devil.
> >
>
> However, the motif of the treasure-gurading dragon is witnesed in
> Ladon and the Hespereides, the Golden Fleece, etc. The motif of the
> herod doing battle with the dragon likewise. Also, Marduck did battle
> with the Mushushu dragomns Tiamat summoned in the Enuma Elish. Some
> argue Tiamat herself was a dragon, and she was certainlky was
> associated wiuth waters, but in this case the salty wayers that
> encircled the comsos, not rain water.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >Also, there are numerous stories of fire-breathing multi-headed
> ogres
> > >and giants that closely resemble dragon stories. How are we to
> > >explain the overlap here, if dragons are ultimately water/rain
> > >symbols?
> >
> > If you speak of the Indo-European story of the three-headed serpent,
> > there _is_ a connection with water as usual but yet again there are
> > symbols overlayed on top of the original function.
> >
> > Actually, _that_ serpent may not be related to rain and so it's not
> a
> > "dragon" in the true sense. I was thinking that it was probably
> just a
> > cute little story to explain the origin of rivers. (In other words,
> the
> > serpent is slain by the hero and we end up with a giant, slithering
> > river.) The three heads are probably because of the tripartite
> symbolism
> > of the three social castes a la Dumezil. This symbolism exists in
> later
> > Indo-European mythologies enough to appear credible.
> >
> > Number symbolism is common in mythology. The number of heads have
> less
> > to do with creating a fearful monster (although this may be part of
> it)
> > and more to do with abstract symbology.
> >
> >
> > - gLeN
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>