Re: [tied]_Does_Koenraad_Elst_Meet_Hock´s_Challenge?

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 17103
Date: 2002-12-10

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:39:02 -0800 (PST), george knysh
<gknysh@...> wrote:

>--- Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>> On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:56:17 -0800 (PST), Juha
>> Savolainen
>> <juhavs@...> wrote:
>> >Do you accept Mallory´s set of five principles? And
>> if
>> >you do, what would be your best guesstimate for the
>> IE
>> >homeland?
>> My best guesstimate for the homeland is the Balkan
>> peninsula,
>> 6500-5500 BC (calibrated). The Linear Ware (LBK)
>> expansion into the
>> Northern European Lowlands (from Hungary to Denmark,
>> from Holland to
>> Poland, and further into the Ukranian steppelands),
>*****GK: There was no expansion of LBK into the
>Ukrainian steppelands. Its easternmost point in
>Ukraine was at Borysivka on the Middle Dnister, which
>is a considerable distance from the steppes. It did
>however expand towards the southeast into Moldavia and
>Rumania. There is as yet no evidence that LBK
>influenced (or Indo-Europeanized) cultural groups to
>the east, such as Bog-Dnister, Dnipro-Donetsk, and
>Sursk. Its Ukrainian outpost disappeared without a
>trace. We discussed some issues pertinent to this in
>October/November 2001.******

Apart from Anatolian, Tocharian seems to be the IE language group that
separated earliest. There is a clear break between Anatolian and the
rest, and a somewhat less clear break between Tocharian and the
others. After that, clear breaks are hard to identify. I would say
Germanic and Armenian were in relative isolation early on, but there
are clear signs of contact between Germanic and Balto-Slavic and
Germanic and (Italo-)Celtic (likewise Armenian ~ Greek and Armenian ~

The question is what happened at the edges of the LBK area, where
conditions were not favourable anymore for "LBK technology". The
early (sub-)Neolithic cultures of the steppe and forest-steppe emerge
just at the time that Neolithic farmers (from the Balkans and the LBK
area) arrive at the edges of the area. Clearly, the adoption of
pottery, animal domestication and other Neolithic techniques was
inspired by these newcomers. Was there also a movement of peoples and
therefore languages into the area? I can't see why not. Small groups
(comparable to the trappers and coureurs de bois in North America) may
have abandoned the purely Neolithic way of life and have adopted a
hybrid culture at the edge of the let's say "civilized world", and
eventually far beyond it. That's my theory on the ultimate origin of
the Tocharians.

>*****GK: I don't see how one can demonstrate on
>archaeological grounds that Balto-Slavic and
>especially Indo-Iranian (+Nuristani) expanded from a
>central area identified with the territory occupied by

It seems clear that Indo-Iranian expanded out of the Pontic/Caspian
area, and the Yamna(ya) culture provides a good archaeological locus.
The question then becomes how to trace back the Yamna(ya) people to
the "central area". And Piotr's Globular Amphora scenario sounds good
to me.

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal