Re: [tied] Goths and OCS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Goths and OCS



----- Original Message -----
From: alexmoeller@...
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Goths and OCS


> The whole point is that the bible of Ulfila is translated in
the normal way of speak of the goths , meaning they have had
already the corupted latin words in their language at the time
the bible was translated. And this latin words could be
brrowed ( in a such corrupted form and ath that time?) just
from the romanians.

This is unlikely. We have the same words (or at least most of
them) in Northwest Germanic (English, German, Dutch, the
Scandinavian languages) as well, and the form of some of them
implies _very_ early borrowing (*kaisar- is a classic example,
with its diphthongal *ai and velar *k; it must have been taken
straight from _early_ Imperial Latin, before the time we have
a right to call Proto-Romanian, and apparently before the
Goths moved as far as Ukraine, not to mention Wulfila and his
Bible).

[Moeller]
these could get later in Northwest germanic frough the francs
& langobards. Dont you mind?And because you speak on object
let me tell you the gothic words in discution:
aket= vinegar
anakumbiam= to sit at a table
arka= chest
asilus= ass
arkeis= jug, cup
awo= grandmother
karkara= prison
katils= kettle
kaupon= to trade
lein= linen
lukarn= candle
mes= table
paurpura= purple garment
sakkus= sack cloth
sigliam= to seal
skaurpio= scorpion
wein= wine
widuwo= widow
disdailan = to divide
disbniupan= to tear in two
distahian= to distroy
distairan= to tear in pieces
diswiss= dissolution
laisareis= teacher
motareis= toll-taker
sokareis= disputer
wullareis= fuller

Composed words:
lukarna statha= candel stick
weina-gards= vineyard
weina-triu= wine tree
Transaltion or calques:
aina-baur= first-born
arma-hairtei= mercy ( lat. misericordia)
gud-hus= temple
mana-seth= mankind
us-kuths= well-known

Draganesti quote as fallow:
"The words belonging to the last three categories are
exceptionaly signifiant , borrowings of this kind of lexical
combination being only the consequence of relationship of
close co-habitation of broad masses of population speaking two
diferent languages".
He minds, just in Dacia coudl happen that thing.


[Piotr]
Quite simply, this r/l-metathesis did not operate in the
earliest Slavic dialects in the Balkans (shortly after ca. AD
550), but at that time Slavic contacts with the
proto-Romanians and Proto-Albanians were sporadic at best.
Most of the Slavic loans in both languages were taken after AD
800, i.e. after metathesis. The shape of some of these words
betrays their Slavic origin. E.g. *dolto 'chisel' comes from
*dolb-to- (with a typically Slavic simplification of *-b-t-
[-pt-]) and is regularly derived from the Slavic verb *dolbati
(with the *b preserved before a vowel) and *dels^ti < *delb-ti
'to chisel, to make holes' (PIE *dHelbH-, cf. Eng. delve),
i.e. it belongs to a familiar derivational paradigm in Slavic
and has a clear etymology there, whereas it's lexically
isolated in Romanian and Albanian.

Piotr

[Moeller]
If the loans were made after metathesis , then the romanian
and albanain balta are not slavic but autochton. In fact for
"bl" in romanian you do not have any restriction , you have
words as Blandiana, blãnd, bleanda , blea$ca, words from
substrate and latin which shows there should have been no
problem to take the slavic blato for balta.
For dalta, well here I have to think a bit. "Dl" is a
restriction in romanian. You cannot use "dl" for making any
romanian word.So normaly the romanians have to broke the group
"dl" . And if they did it, they do it normaly with "â" not
with "a". So you will have dâltã but not dalta.
As the matter of family we have the verb "a dãltui" which
after the desinence, shows a new word in romanian if we makes
abstraction from the old form " a dãlti" which is the same as
in " a bãlti" because no romanian will use " a bãltui".
the plural forms of dalta and balta are dãlti and bãlti which
has the same form as the verb.
For family, you are right. Dalta is a standalone word there
.From this word are several derivates but all of them are just
in conection with the word dalta and nothing more, so it
seeams ( family and verbal desinence) that this one is indeed
a loanword and in this case from slavic:-)