Re: [tied] berbery, barberry

From: alexmoeller@...
Message: 16307
Date: 2002-10-16

----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] berbery, barberry

[Piotr wrotte]

> The compound <propedila> surely meant something to the
Dacians (which
> is the whole point about folk etymology -- you reanalyse a
> word in terms of familiar elements), but we can't be sure
> exactly for want of a Dacian dictionary. However, its form
> (p..p..d..l..) was quite evidently inspired by Gaul.
> ;-}
> Piotr


I am very sorry for this long message but I guess I have had
to write almost all the way I proceded with this word

Piotr, first, I want to thank you for your analyse here .
Second I should like to show you what you dont see or maybe
you dont know.

First: we have two plantes in discution, but, if I come on a
older ideea of you, the semantic doesnt matter.Fact is we have
two plants.
One of them is "ciunque folio", in romanian "cinci degete".
This one plant, "cinci degete" is not the same plant as
"dracila", please do not make a confusion like in a previus
mail where "pãtrunjel" was supposed to be the same plant as
"tzelina". They are two different plants and they have two
different names.
In the case we discusse here, too, we have two plants with two
differents names.
So let us take them as I found them by Apuleius:
Galli: pompedulon
Dacii: propedula alii drocila
Itali qinquefolium
I finf more explanations here as bellow:
" In bothanic therminology: berberis vulgaris, spina acida,
Essig-Dorn.Analogical names: artemisia dragunculus. In Spain
dragoncilla, in Italia dragoncelo."
These informations I find in one book.
OK, I take another book and I find about dacian plantes by
Dioscoride and Pseudoapuleius:
for the latin plant "Potentila reptans" I find these names bei
dacian name=Propedila
by Apuleius , the dacian name here is too Propedila

In this second book, no word about "Berberis vulgaris" but I
find these entries for "unidentyfied" plants:
For Dioscoride:Coadama, Cotiata, Guoleta/Gonoleta, Tura,
For Apuleius: Drocila, Dinubula, Amalusta
The name "drocila" is once again to find , in this case as "
unidentyfied" .

I take my DEX and my book for plants and I look for latin
names. And I find first the romanian entries:
for "cinci degete"= erbacean plant with leaves builded by 5
foliolis and with yellow flowers, ethym. latin " potentila
for "drãcila"=thorn-bush with yellow flowers and red sferic
fruits. ( red sferic fruits= my translation for " cu fructe in
forma de boabe roshii").etymolog slavic dreCi, dracije.
I ask on cybalist, Piotr is so kind and says his meaning
about, telling me it must be soemthing wrong, is a failure
this must be procila and not drocila.
Alex thinks as fallow: OK if there is "dro" in drocila and not
how Piotr say, there must be another thracians roots which
belong with "dro". Are there any? Alex takes his lists with
thracian roots and finds as fallow:
Dromichaete, DrobetaDrabos, Drabescos.
Well from this point of view, the root "dro" doesnt stay alone
here. But still we have the chanse to make a mistake. So we
take a look at the entries which are given more there.I repeat
" In bothanic therminology: berberis vulgaris, spina acida,
Essig-Dorn.Analogical names: artemisia dragunculus. In Spain
dragoncilla, in Italia dragoncelo."
So very interesting point, there are similar names in spain
and italia like: dragoncila and dragoncelo:
We have dragoncila, dragoncelo, dracila. That looks very
apetisant to me. It seems there is no "bad print" there.But
let us see if something is more here.
We see the paralelism:
latin: dragun+culus from artemisia dragunculus
spanish dragon+cilla
italic: dragon+celo
OK, it seems to me very OK. dragon/drac is the same word. But
the romanians dont have "dragon" in their language. Simply is
a new word, dragon is unknown to simply people, they know
"balaur" for dragon. But drac, ok, "dracul"=the devil is known
by anyone now since Scott and his Dracula.
I take a look at the romanian drac and I see in DEX that
etimology= latin. draco which means " serpent or dragon" in
romanian serpent=sharpe, dragon= balaur.
OK, first I learn drac= latin draco
I learnead that dracila= slavic draCia or dracije.
Hmm, something is not pretty ok here. Something is bad. Alex
thinks," why ?"and gives himselfs answers: For sure it is the
suffix. Let see that suffix: the sufix here is "-ila", how we
seen drac+ilã
Alex takes his books with the History of Romanian Language
( I have more of them by several appreciated and respectated
linguists) and Alex looks for suffix "-ilã".and learns as
-ila from slavic "-lo" .This "lo" makes in slavic languages
adjectives and substantives , agent names and person names
(Bratilo, Stanilo)
In romanian this "-ilã" makes common substantives ( rotilã,
zorilã), it makes more names for objects like tzesalã, zãbalã,
it makes more masculine or feminine names like matahalã ( a
very big or fet man/woman), pãcalã ( obne who makes bad jokes
to people), tândalã( one who is very lassy and doesnt want to
So far so good ( or bad?).
It seems that my drãcila which has a slavic etimology as
draCia or dracije ( i didnt know what these two words mean in
slavic, but I found out it must mean "thorn")
OK, herer Alex is in a big trouble. He seen latin dragon,
romanian drac, slavic draCi/dracija, he seen the suffix "-ila"
from slavic "-lo" he see that "drãcila" is not a slavic
loanword but a composed one. Because the slavic forms do not
have the suffix "lo" , tehy are draCia or dracja, so the
romaniasn must composed them.
Alex , has the curiosity to take a look at the examples given
for sufix "ila" from slavic "lo" in romanian examples. So he
rotilã=cd DEX etymology= roata +suffix -ila, roata= cd DEX ,
etymology latin "rota"
zorilã=zori+sufix -ila, zori= cf DEX etimology=slavic zoI (
genitif plural of zorja)
tzesalã=etymology bulgarian or serbo-croatian "Cesalo"
zãbalã=etymology hungarian zabola
mãtãhalã=unknown etimology.
pãcalã= from " a pãcãli" = unknown etimology
tândalã= from " a tândãli"=etimology= from german "taendeln"=
to make jokes...
cotârlã= a very useless dog= unknown etymology.
Well, Alex doesnt know what to think about.Alex takes back his
lists with dacian plants and sees:
Mizela, Propedila, Toulbela, Duodela, Kinouboila, Priadila,
Koikodila, Usazila/Azila, etc.
Alex see everywhere in these plants suffixes as "ela, ila",
suffixes very known and actual in romanian language but he
read in the linguistic books that the suffixes "ila" is from
slavic "lo" and suffix "ela"-actualy "-eala" in literar
romanian is from slavic "E l I ( eli)".
Alex thinks about and ask the people here. Which is the right
conclusion here?