More numbers

From: tgpedersen
Message: 15842
Date: 2002-10-01

--- In cybalist@..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:31:47 -0000, tgpedersen@... wrote:
> [stuff about Austronesian, or was it Austric?]
> While I don't believe a word of this whole Oppenheimer-Manansala
> stuff, it's still interesting to note that in 1840, Franz Bopp, one
> the fathers of Indo-European studies (although pre-Junggrammatiker)
> published an article where he advocated a (genetic) relationship
> between Indo-European and Malayo-Polynesian. I have never read
> so I cannot say exactly what his idea was based on, but one can make
> an educated guess that the numerals had something to do with it.
> Austronesian forms such as <duwa> "2" (PAN *dewsa) and <teru> "3"
> *telu) certainly strike the imagination, and Bopp thought he was on
> something, just like he (justly) thought to be on to something when
> noted (as one of the first) the similarities between the Sanskrit
> Greek, Latin, Persian and Germanic conjugation systems.
> Nowadays, of course, these similarities are thought to be mere
> coincidences, but about a year ago I found something strange. I was
> reading up on Ancient Egyptian in Schenkel's "Einführung", and came
> the chapter on the numerals. The Egyptian for "four" was <jfdw>
> (*/? < *<?-p.-t.->). Schenkel compares this with forms like
> Somali <afar> "4", and Beja <fad.ig> "4". I might add Chadic
> <f(w)ud.u> "4". The interesting thing is that Schenkel next
> Semitic <?arba3-> "4", from *<?arp.aG->, and by metathesis and
> (irregular) *t. > r, ultimately from a PAA prototype like
> *<?Vp.t.-VGu> (> AEg. <?>, Somali <afar>) or *<p.Vt.-VGu> (>
> Beja <fad.ig>, Hausa <fud.u>).
> At the time, I was thinking about the possibility that cases of
> Germanic *f/*b, besides general PIE *kw, might reflect a PIE phoneme
> *pw, so a hypothetical *<pwetwor-> "four" (**putVwa:r-) fit right in
> with this PAA form *<p.Vt.VGu>. And so did PAA *c^VlVc^- (PSem
> *t_ala:t_-) "three", if from **tila[:]ti-, in view of PIE *trey-,
> where the *-y might reflect palatalized *t^ (cf. the ordinal *<tr.t-
> and the unacceptable cluster **tl- may have developed regularly to
> *tr- (so *t[^]ret^- from pre-Nullstufe **tilati-).
> To this, we can add Basque <hirur> "3", which can be derived from
> **<tilut->, and <laur> "4", possibly from **<lapt->.
> The amazing thing is the link with Proto Austronesian. We have
> *<telu> "3", and *<xepate> "4". The *x is a reconstructed sound
> mostly goes to zero, /h/ or glottal stop, but appears as /s/, /s^/
> /l/ in the Taiwanese languages. Maybe it was a fricative lateral,
> which is interesting, considering Basque <laur> "4" < *<lapt->.
> Now relations between PIE and PAA, whether genetic or involving the
> mere borrowing of numerals, are not surprising (think of *septm).
> Basque is not terribly surprising either ("6" and "7" in Basque are
> <sei> (*<s^ei>) and <zazpi> (< *sasbi)). But what the hell are
> PAA/PIE numerals doing in Taiwan? I have no explanation. I'll
> "coincidence".
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...

I don't think we have to include the Taiwanese forms by going all the
way back to Proto-Austronesian.
Notice in

that in the language Tidong or Serudong of NE Borneo instead
of "nine"
being derived from the standard *siwa? as in the other Austronesian
languages we have

nanus "9"

and instead of five being derived from the almost universal *lima?
we have

kegai "6"

Similarly in the Solomon Islands in Melanesia, which Manansala
believes were colonized by people who left Indonesia 3000 BCE we
find for "five" in five languages

Qae (Visale) cege
Di ( Vaturanga) jehe
Ghari cheghe
Talise cheghe
Malango chehe

and further

Santa Isabel:

Kia gaha-ghu
Laghu gaoha
Kokota ghagh-au
Zazao gaha

This is obviously another root than *lima? Is it *kWe(n)kWe?

"Six" and "seven" are borrowed (presumably) from AfroAsiatic to
IndoEuropean and also to Etruscan (sa, semph), Basque
(sei, zazpi) and Kartvelian (ekvsi, shvidi ). They seem alway to
follow each other. Because of some IE reflexes of "six" that
don't seem to have the initial s- (Old Prussian, some Iranian
languages), that part of the root is sometimes left optional; this
also makes it easier to reconcile the root with Kartvelian (Georgian
Which gave me this idea: Suppose s- is some kind of "number prefix"
*se- in whichever was the original language of six and seven? (Basque
would have it double, *se-pi- > *spi-, prefix now unrecognizable, so
it's added again: *se-spi-.) And seven, without the prefix would be
*pitu-, which, voila!, is "seven" in nearly all Austronesian languages
(Proto-Austronesian *pitu?).

This might also take care of Northwest Caucasian (eg. Kabard- Cherkes
(x^e, bLe; both prefix-less!), Proto-Nakh (Proto-Nakh+ *jalx, *worl,
also both prefix-less).

Notice in

under Eastern Cushitic, for "four" and "five":

Proto-HEC+ *shoole *omute
Burji foola umutta
Gedeo shoole onde
Hadiyya sooro onto
Kambata shoolo onto
Sidamo shoole onte
Yaaku çwen xoopi
Birale talaxa hobbe
Tsamay sálah= xóobin
Afar firéy-i konóy-u
Saho afaar koon
Dasenech ?affur cen
Elmolo+ láfur kên
Arbore ?afúr chénn
Bayso afar ken
Rendille 'áfar cán
Somali áfar-ti shan-ti
Tunni áfar shán
Aweer áfar shâng
Oromo (Galla) afur shan
Borana afur shian
Konso afur ken

Note that it falls into two groups; the last one (from Afar on) has
for "four" cognates of the ones Miguel mentioned (/?afúr/ etc), and
for "five" something that might have been *kWen-? A cognate of
Semitic *h-m-s-?
Notice also Guanche (Tenerife) cansa "five".

As I understand it *pW would be an allophone of *kW (note the various
AfroAsiatic variants of eg okkoz (< *?-kW-t-?); this fits is nicely
Glen's IndoTyrrhenian *kWet:Wa "four")?

As for Glen's IndoTyrrhenian *k:Wel "three": there are some Berber
examples of *k-r-d- (Proto-Berber /krad/ etc; < Austronesian *t-l-
+ half-reduplication -t ?).

And the downright freaky: Ayatalic (Taiwan) maghal, Etruscan mach
"five", muvalch "fity" (Glen proposes IndoTyrrhenian *mek:xe "to be