Re: [tied] Piotr and the Dacians:-)

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 15231
Date: 2002-09-06

----- Original Message -----
From: mbikqyres
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Piotr and the Dacians:-)

> [Alvin] Pokorny relates Illyrian Buni to modern Albanian terms for dwelling like bunë or even buj or banoj. The river Buna/Bunë goes from the lake of Shkodër to Adriatic sea.
The river name is irrelevant. What connection has it got with dwellings? as for the rest, if Illyrian Buni is a derivative of PIE *bHuh2-, the root occurs almost everywhere in IE. You might just as well compare Alb. burrë 'man' with the Germanic tribal name Buri.

> Also you saw a relation of the Illyrian name Drenos (river Drin, ending in the Adriatic sea) to IE der-, Albanian derdh (ejaculate). Probably to Albanian dren/dre/drer (deer) and dredh/dridh (curl) as well.
It can't be related to all these things at once. The ancient form is clearly Dreinos, possibly derived from *der- 'run'. If it's just IE or specifically Illyrian, it proves nothing about the Albanian homeland. The Albanians may have adopted it as they found it.

> The ancient Illyrian name of the mountain Tomorr (south Albania), TOmaroj (IE tem, dark) has counterparts in Albanian terr (dark) and tmerr (fear).
But again, there's nothing specifically Albabian about it. The Slavic word for 'darkness' is *tIma, derived from the same root, as are Latin tenebrae and Skt. ta:mra-, tamisra-.

> The name of Illyrian king Bardhyl- is still explained with Albanian words bardh + h/yll (shining star).
This is just a folk etymology based on the similarity of sound between two arbitrarily chosed _modern_ Albanian words and an Illyrian name (with a gap of two millennia between them). I'm more inclined to believe that  

> When it comes to Illyrian queen Teuta or TeÚtaroj (IE teutƒ, crowd) a great number number of Albanian related words could be found: tufë (flock), turmë (crowd), tumbë (flock, crest), tubë (herd), tul (crumb). And why not becoming a single human person in teto/teta/tetoja (aunt) ?! Why not becoming a leader in turi (muzzle) ?!
I'm not sure if I know what "a leader in a muzzle" is (a guide dog?). Alb. tetë 'aunt' is the same word as Slavic teta, None of the Albanian words you mention has anything to do with PIE *teuto- and the name of the Illyrian queen. They are a mere collection of words beginning with <tu->.

> We also have Illyrian Turo/Turus (tower) in Albanian turrë (pile) and
probably farther developed into kullë (tower).
"Probably"? Who told you so? <kullë> can't be related to <turrë> in any imaginable way. then, how about Lat. turris 'tower'?

> Some other words I ran into:

> Illyrian en/anna/AnnUla (mother) is related to Albanian nana/nënë (mother, grandmother), amë (mother), maybe even ninananë/ninullë (a song sang by a mother to her child).
These are nursery words found in this or similar form in scores of languages, not even from the same family, cf. Hungarian anya, Hittite annas or, say, Manchu eme (all meaning 'mother', English nanny, etc. They prove absolutely nothing about genetic proximity.

> Illyr. potnia (lady), Alb. ije/ija (grandmother, old lady), zojë/zoja/zonjë/zonja (lady).
The 'grandmother' word doesn't fit here at all. The 'lady' word comes from *wik^-potnih2-, but <potnia>, even if an authentic Illyrian word (I don't know where you took it from), is also common IE and found e.g. in Greek. Shared retentions don't indicate genetic relationship, because they may have easily been inherited independently; only shared innovations do.

> Illyr. to, Alb te/tek
C'mon, adpreps inherited from the protolanguage (te < *ató:) don't prove anything.

> Illyr. Boii, Alb bie (hit, fall).
The Boii were in fact Celtic, not Illyrian, to begin with. Secondly, *bHei- 'hit' is a proto-root inherited independently by several groups (cf. Slavic bojI 'fight', biti 'hit, beat').

> Illyr. *balta, Alb baltë/balta.
Pokorny's asterisk means here that the form is conjectural and the "Illyrian" word is actually unattested. <baltë> 'mud' is a Slavic loan, like Rom. baltã (< pre-metathesis *bolto; cf. Alb. daltë, Rom. daltã <-- Slavic *dolto < *dolbto 'chisel').

> Illyr. *paitf, Alb petkë (a kind of dress).
I've no idea what this strange Illyrian reconstruction is based on, or how its meaning has been divined. You could even add English petticoat, or anything, to such a doubtful set.

> Illyr. br-sa [bri:sa -- PG] (grapeoil), Alb bërsi (grapeoil, [g]rape)
While they may be related, this is more likely a technical term borrowed from language to language. Latin borrowed it too, and so did Serbian more recently. We don't even know who started this chain of borrowings.

> Illyr. rinos (clouds), Alb. re (clouds).

Here the formal match is OK, but the semantic one is shaky. Messapic (not Illyrian proper!) rinós is actually glossed <akHlu:s> 'mist'. They may be somehow related, but you haven't much to build a relationship proposal on.