Re: [tied] Re:P & Q

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 14401
Date: 2002-08-20

The actually known Umbrian numerals are <uns>, < tuf/duf>, < trif/tref>, < petur->, < pumpe-> and <sehs> (the rest unattested). Of these, <petur> may look suggestive, but the next item hiding behind your "and so on", <pumpe>, does not look like <cinci> at all. It's of course only the initial <p> of <petur> that makes the similarity so striking. But (as also has been argued here before), the change od kW, kw > p is sufficiently common for the assumption of parallel development in p-Italic and Proto-Romanian to be acceptable (note e.g. Welsh pedwar). Cf. Sardinian <uno, duos, tres, battoro, kimbe, sesi, ...>, again with a convergent-looking development of "4" but a still different treatment of the labiovelars in "5".
Albanian, incidentally, has /k/ for inherited *kW (yielding /s/ in palatalising environments), thus testifying that in the only well-known "aboriginal" language of the area there was no change of old *kW into /p/. Note also that while e.g. Latin /-kt-/ gives Albanian /-ft-/ (similar to Romanian /-pt-/ as in <opt>), _inherited_ *-kt- gives Albanian -t- (as in <natë> 'night'). This shows that Balkan Latin followed its own ways rather than mimic the developments found in the local languages.
----- Original Message -----
From: alexmoeller@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re:P & Q

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
An: <>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 20. August 2002 08:59
Betreff: Re: [tied] Re: for Alvin

For completeness' sake:

Lat.                                         Umbric
u:nu     > unu         > un         --unu
duo:s    > d(u)oi      > doi      --du-
tre:s    > trei        > trei           --tre-
quattru  > kwat(t)ru   > patru --petur

and so on..

[Moeller] thank you for your completation Miguel.
I am afraid of what I say, but I see, the late evoulution of latin in
some circumstances( in this case romanian) makes a thratament like the
umbric but not like latin. Or this is weird, umbric been long time dead
as the romans got into Balkans.In fact we can say, romanian handle the
words like the P-Dialects of italic and celtic language , but not like
the Q-Dialect how latin was.
The work into this field is still at beginning, but I guess that
publishing some toughts,trough the questions of the linguists, I can see
the weakness of the reasons which induced these toughts.

best regards

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.