Re: [tied] Re: Daci

----- Original Message -----

From: mbikqyres

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:42 PM

Subject: [tied] Re: Daci

[Alvin:] > I personally think you still have to deal with the sea :) I think proto-Albanians were introduced very early to the sea, as early as PIE word *dHeubeto- 'the deep' was still in use, producing later on the Modern Albanian <det> for 'sea'. Now, if the proto-Albanians would have come in a later phase to those regions Modern Albanian word for 'sea' would have been <thellësi>, because the ancient word <debët> is disappeared. Or better, Albanians would have called it "mar-" borrowing the Latin word, as in many other cases. Is anything wrong with this logic?

 

[Piotr:] The Slavic languages developed rather far inland, and yet have a common word for 'sea', *morje < PIE *mori (+ *-o-). The Proto-Albanians may well have been aware of the existence of 'deep water' not so far away, and if they were part of a continuous chain of Getic dialects, some of the vocabulary of Black Sea Getic would have diffused into proto-Albanian. What is more telling is the absence of developed native sea-related terminology (fishing, sailing, boat-building), strange for an ancient sea people.

 

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[Piotr:] >> "Great Serbian" chauvinism has inflicted enough damage, criminal as well as intellectual, but the best response to it is rational thought, objectivity and general civility, not a similar (even if toned down) attitude on the other side.

[Alvin:] > Every action has it´s reaction! Moreover if it is a case of survival.

[Piotr:] Only civilised relations make survival possible. Of course what's required is some sincere good will on both sides, but sometimes even unilateral good will does more good than its deficiency on both sides.

 

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[Piotr:] >> ... the root *der- 'run, flow swiftly'

 

[Alvin:] > I understand, it is the Albanian <derdh>. How about <dredh> 'to spin', 'to curl'.

[Piotr:] I'm not sure; there are several similar roots in PIE (e.g. *dhreg^- 'go, move', unrelated to *der-). I'll try to check these up.

 

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[Piotr:] >> But names in Shk- = Lat. Sc- cannot be Proto-Albanian, since PAlb. *sk- > h-. They represent originally _non-Albanian_ forms borrowed after the change of inherited *sk- > h-.

[Alvin:] > What about names in Shp- like the case of <shpatë> 'sword'.

 

[Piotr:] I'm not sure how PIE *sp- developed (I don't remember the relevant examples, but I'll check that later). Anyway, <shpatë> is a loan (Lat. spatha).

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[Alvin:] > You are talking about a contact with the Doric Greeks.

 

[Piotr:] Yes, very old contacts on a limited scale. They left a thin layer of archaic Greek loans in Albanian.

 

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[Alvin:] > What made me think of the word 'door' <der-> is the strange pluralis <dyer> and because I think I have heard some dialectic phrases of the kind 'i dul m´dur' (i doli më derë), 'i erdh n´dur' (i erdhi në derë). The problem here is that there might have been the case of the word <dorë> 'hand' as well.

[Piotr:] The diphthongisation of *e > ie/ye before a final liquid or nasal is the outcome of a regular sound change dating back to Middle Albanian (cf. feva vs. fyem), parallel to the change of *o > uo > ua/ue in the same positions. It looks strange today because it has escaped analogical levelling. <dorë> is a regular reflex of inherited PIE *g^He:r- < *g^Hesr (cf. Gk. kHeir). I'm not competent to tell whether it might possibly have influenced the forms of <derë>.

 

Cheers,

 

Piotr