Re: [tied] PIE stops

On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:04:05 +0100, "Piotr Gasiorowski"
<gpiotr@...> wrote:

>> If they were merely allophones, of course I can't prove anything. But Oscan and Umbrian consistently use F, never B or D.
>
>... because in Oscan and Umbrian the fricative remained fricative in all positions, so why should they have spelt it with letters representing stops? If the spelling <f> was used for both [f] and [v] (whether from *T/D < *D < *dH, *v < *bH or *v < *GW < *gHW), how could one know the difference?

If it was /B/ rather than /v/, one might expect a few spelling with B,
especially in combinations with liquids or nasals.

>> Pre-Italic must have had *f, *T, *x and *xW in all positions. /T/ > /f/ is a natural
>development. /D/ > /f/ is not.
>
>But [D] > [v] > [f] at word margins is natural enough, and that's what I propose (after Meillet).

We have [D] > [v] (and [T] > [f]) in Cockney, so I of course will not
deny it can happen. Still, it's a relatively rare development for [D]
(> [d] is much more common in the several Englishes).

Furthermore, we have cases in Latin with /f/ preserved in the Inlaut
(<nefrones>, and the */dhr/ > /tr/ words I mentioned in another
message).

>If in your "Graeco-Italic" zone *dH = /tH/, how do we get /d/ in Macedonian (a _very_ close relative of Greek)

Well, you tell *me*. We can argue about Italic, but Greek *has* */dh/

> /th/.

>> There are some other examples of *kH > x (*ple^sI [you mean *ple^s^I, I presume]/*plIxU, *xorbrU), besides some examples of *kH > k. Perhaps *kh2 > x and *kh1 > k, but there is not enough material to be sure.
>
>What's the comparative evidence for *ploik-h2-o- (rather than, say, *ploik-s-o-)? I also wonder how (and with what comparative support) you'd analyse *xorbrU.

I just took these examples from Bräuer, I think it was. I have to
pack because tonight we're leaving for Spain, so I'll have to get back
to you about this in the next year.

>> It is worth noting that the two branches that split off from PIE earliest, Anatolian and Tocharian, do not have voice as a distinguishing feature in their stop systems. This must represent the PIE situation, and we can assign the values *dh = [th], *d = [t] and
>*t = [t:], almost precisely as shown by Hittite orthography in medial position (*dh and *d = <t>, *t = <tt>).
>
>You use the word "must" to categorically dismiss all other scenarios and interpretations.

I don't. I use the word "must" to express a strongish opinion that
something is the most likely conclusion to be drawn from the facts.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...