Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names

--- Alexander Stolbov <astolbov@...> wrote:

> Sorry for responding with a delay, George.
>
> It is very interesting, although it's not easy to
> accept the equation Ulichi
> = Polane.
> (I read that the root in Polane means "forest", not
> "field", with the prefix
> po- , like in the word Polesie)

*****GK: The "folk-etymology" of Sylvester contrasted
"Polane" (=those who live in fields [="pole"]) to
"D(e)revlane" (=those who live in forests [literally
"in tree land"]. I agree that Polane=Ulichi is a big
innovation. But it's the only way I could find to make
sense of all the sources. Constantine Porphyrogenitus
places the Ulichi just north of the Pechenegs and just
south of the Derevlany. He does not mention the Polane
at all. Neither does the Bavarian Anonymous (who knows
the Ulichi). The Armenian version of the Ulch (later
Kyivan/Kievan) foundation legend associates "Paluni"
with the "three brothers". Since the "learned"
folk-etymology of Polane is incorrect we need to find
another explanation. I think we will find it in the
nomenclature of the Scytho-Sarmatian world.******

>
> Do you have any ideas concerning Tivertsy (plural
> form) who lived next land
> to Ulichi - between S. Bug and Dnestr rivers, in the
> steppe (steppe-forest)
> zone too?

*****GK: Yes I do. It was part of the 1997 article. It
also is quite new and controversial. The gist:
(1)Sylvester added the mentions of the "Ulychi
Tyvertsi" to the Primary Chronicle. It should be
viewed as a combined name not as two distinct tribal
names. (2) The fact that the "Ulychi Tyvertsi" are
also described as "Tolkovini" (="translators") is
significant. (3) The "Ulych gradi" which existed "to
our day" (so Sylvester) were the ruins of the Scythian
cities along the Lower Dnipro/Dnepr. Acc. to
Constantine Porphyrogenitus these ruins were still
impressive in the mid-10th c. though at the time they
were under Pecheneg control and had Pecheneg names.
(4) In the later 11th century Kyivan Rus' established
control over the Lower Dnipro by way of "strong
points" along the shores, so as to guarantee the
security of its Constantinople bound merchants. In
this connection "exploration" (and exploitation) of
the Ulch ruins became easier (they may even have been
used as quarries for buildings further north). (5)
Sylvester travelled to the area and did some
exploration of his own. (6) he discovered an
inscription partly deciphered as "..OULI..
TIBERI...HERMENEUTES..". (7) This Greek inscription
dated back to the times when the Bosporan Kingdom had
control of the Lower Dnipro (early 3rd c. AD, just
before the advent of the Goths). It is similar to
other such inscriptions in Bosporan cities the most
famous of which concerns a Translator for the Alans.
(8) Out of this Sylvester created his "Ulichi
Tivertsi" who were "translators". Of course ...OULI..
TIBERI... was hardly what Sylvester thought but rather
part of the official title of the Biosporan monarchs
since the 1rst century when they all began to call
themselves "Iulius Tiberius" (plus their own name) in
honour of the Roman Emperors. The "Tivertsi" disappear
from the Chronicle at the same time as the "Ulichi"
and the "Polane". viz., ca. 944.===== So that's my
theory.*******

>
> Alexander
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 11:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names
>
>
> >
> > --- Alexander Stolbov <astolbov@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
> > > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 4:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names
> > >
> > > ...
> > > > There is a Hunnic people known as the
> "ULCH"(ULTZ)
> > > and
> > > > a post-Attila leader known as Ulchindur.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > On the other hand there was an early (9th-10th
> > > cent.) East Slavic tribe
> > > Ulichi (Slavic plural form, singular - Ulich)
> who
> > > lived somewhere between
> > > the South Bug and Ingulets rivers, i.e. in the
> > > steppe zone (quite not
> > > typical place to live for early Slavs).
> > >
> > > I wonder whether these ethnonyms are connected
> > > anyhow.
> >
> > *****GK: I think they are very much connected,
> > Alexander. I've written two articles on issues
> > relating to this, having been encouraged by an
> > excellent linguist (the late Bohdan Struminski) at
> a
> > conference in 1992 (Urbana-Champaign), who
> confirmed
> > that my as yet undeveloped hypothesis of the
> > convergence of Hunnic ULCH and Slavic ULICHI (both
> > rendered by the Byzantine Greek OULTINES) was
> correct.
> > As my research progressed I discovered that the
> famous
> > Primary Chronicle Kyi Legend was simply a "local"
> > adaptation (or "autochtonization") of the 5th-6th
> c.
> > Ulch Foundation Legend as retained by an Armenian
> > source of the early 7th c. (Zenob Glak) and
> stories of
> > post-Attila times in Jordanes [Glak and Jordanes
> > coinciding on some points; Glak and
> Nestor/Sylvester
> > on others]. My major conclusion was that elements
> of
> > the Ulch Hunnic aristocracy had mixed with local
> > Slavic clans, adopted their language, and provided
> > them with a ready-made "political history".=== But
> I
> > then went even further and managed to relocate the
> > Ulch/Ulichi geographically. There was no problem
> in
> > associating the Late Hunnic Ulch with the Lower
> Dnipro
> > "Scythian ruins" and with the Crimea steppe area.
> But
> > careful analysis of Constantine Porphyrogenitus
> and
> > other sources (incl. an item from the Novgorodian
> > Chronicle) convinced me that the Slavic Ulichi
> were
> > located much more to the north, in fact that their
> > "capital" Peresichen' was only about 6 kilometers
> (!)
> > south of the center of Old Kyiv. My second major
> > conclusion was that the so-called "Polani" and the
> > Ulichi were one and the same. The former are
> unknown
> > to sources other than Rus' ones, and both names
> > disappear from the Primary Chronicle at the same
> time.
> > The etymology of "polani" as "people of the
> fields"
> > offered by Sylvester was clearly inadequate [the
> > Primary Chronicle in a passage written by an
> earlier
> > editor notes that the Khazars found the Polani "on
> the
> > hills of Kyiv in the forests", and only there]
> except
> > as some steppe reminiscence. The Glak version has
> the
> > "three brothers" establishing themselves in "the
> land
> > of Paluni" which is the area of the Scythian
> cities
> > along the Lower Dnipro/Dnepr/ Borysthenes. I think
> > that the chroniclers of the late 11th and 12th c.
> knew
> > this historical term, and artificially applied it
> to
> > the population of their time "yazhe nyni zovemaya
> > Rus'" ("which today is called the Rus'") as their
> > older designation, instead of the proper
> > Ulichi.Perhaps there were dynastic issues
> involved.
> > The articles appeared in 1993 and 1997 in The
> > Ukrainian Quarterly, a New York journal. The first
> > article also had a Ukrainian language version in
> the
> > 1993 "Ukrajins'kyj Istoryk" which is available in
> > various depositories in Ukraine (but I don't know
> > about St. Petersburg).*****
> > >
> > > Alexander
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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>
>

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