--- malmqvist52 <
malmqvist52@...> wrote:
> Hi George,
> --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> wrote:
> My
> > current view derives from a combination of (gasp)
> > Jordanes
>
> (AM)But Jordanes says that the Goths left Scandza in
> 1490 BCE!
****GK: Yes, I agree that the date is unacceptable.
From Jordanes I only took the idea that "the Goths
left Scandza" and combined it with Polish and
Ukrainian archaeology.*****
>
>(AM) I'm sorry that I'm no expert on Welbark culture
but,
> the first
> mentionings of the Goths in Barry Cunliffe's "The
> oxford Illustrated
> history of Prehistoric Europe" is in text and on
> maps regarding the
> attacks of Gepids, Goths and Heruli between 250 and
> 280 AD. They then
> appear to come from directly north of the Black Sea,
> around Dnepr.
*****GK: That would probably be correct. Historians
are not fully in agreement as to when the Goths
finally reached the Black Sea and became a dominant
political force in the area. Archaeologists can point
to a progressive infiltration of the Welbark culture
southeastward along the Polish Bug, into today's
Volynian region of Ukraine, and then along the Boh.
Later still, another group arrived in Volynia (beg. of
the 4th c.) and there was some spread eastward and
southward. As the Gotho-Gepids settled in and began to
interact with the various locals, they progressively
adopted the Chernyakhiv cultural forms [there was a
"Welbark-Chernyakhiv" intermediary phase too]. This
interesting "Roman provincial"-influenced culture was
shared with Geto-Dacians, Scytho-Sarmatians,Alans, and
Slavs. Ukrainian archaeologists have managed to focus
on a number of variables (settlement type and house
construction type; burial rite [many different kinds
of inhumations and cremations]; jewellery, et sim.)
which provide a clue as to which group seemed to
predominate in a particular area of "Scythia". One
interesting conclusion was that the Hunnic invasion
and rule eventually provoked the exodus of most Goths,
Alans, Geto-Dacians, and Scytho-Sarmats [a process
lasting about a century after 376 AD). The Slavic
cultures which emerged absorbed the remnants.*****
(AM) perhaps there was no
> ethnogenesis of the
> goths as they consisted of many peoples buched
> together by the Roman
> writers.
> And if there was any ethnogenesis in spite of this
> it was around Dnepr
> and not in present-day Poland.
*****GK: It is indeed a difficult and complex problem.
Given the indubitable existence and spread direction
of the Welbark culture I have no problem in
identifying the Goths with Tacitus' "Gutones". The
political influence wielded by their monarchs (again
Tacitus) is perhaps reflected in some of the
borrowings from Gothic into Slavic [king, helmet,
sword, warband /polk/ and others]. I think there was
some "Gothicization" at the top of the local
hierarchies, but the "core" was already created before
it marched along the Bug.=== Still, major reshufflings
continued to occur, and the Tervingi are not exactly
the "Wisigoths", just as the Greuthungi are not quite
"Ostrogoths".******
(AM) Was this "incoming Scandinavian population"
defined
> more elaborately
> in terms of archaeology? Finds etc.?
>****GK: I think so, but I lack further details. The
book to consult would be "Problemy kultury
wielbarskej" (Slupsk 1981) 277pp. I'll check to see if
there is anything more recent on line.****
>(AM) Who is Tore, and what is his arguments?
*****GK: Tore Gannholm. Perhaps he can outline his
arguments himself since he's a member of our
forum.*****
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