Re: [tied] Re: Burial customs in the countries around Denmark

Well, I think "Vinding kisten" can be called a sarcophagus, although it
differs considerably from the Pazyryk one.

> ... climatic and geological preservation conditions in Denmark ...

I believed they are perfect for keeping for centuries organic remains like
leather, wood, even textiles due to very acid reaction of the marshlands
soils...

Torsten, can you get any details about the Tollund man? He seems to be
killed ritually and the preservation of his head is as good as if it had
been kept in a jar with spiritus vini.
Wasn't his head embalmed by chance?

Alexander

----- Original Message -----
From: <tgpedersen@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:58 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Burial customs in the countries around Denmark


--- In cybalist@..., "Alexander Stolbov" <astolbov@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tgpedersen@...>
> To: <cybalist@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:01 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Burial customs in the countries around Denmark
>
>
> ...
> > In the meanwhile I perhaps should point out again that on the
> > assumption that there was an invasion of Yaz/Vani we would see
three
> > types of burials 1) Yaz, 2) Vani and 3) a continuation of Pre-
Roman
> > (Celtic!) burial customs. Therefore I might claim that that the
wood
> > coffins were Vani, which I believe Alexander Stolbov intimated
were
> > found among the Vani. A very interesting detail is the
orientation of
> > the graves. On Fyn inhumation graves are east-west (and with Roman
> > grave goods) but on Langeland (an longish island to the east of
Fyn,
> > especially of Lundeborg, the "port" of Late Roman Iron Age center
> > Gudme), almost uniformly north-south, with the head northwards, as
> > Alexander Stolbov describes for the Vani (and without Roman garave
> > goods).
> >
> > I read that Rasmus Rask had the crazy idea that the Aesir had
invaded
> > Scandinavia and that he was looking for a Celtic substrate in
> > Germanic. Hm! Anyway he was from Fyn himself, as was my father's
> > family, so what can you expect?
> >
> > Torsten
>
> [A]
>
> Not everything seems so self-evident to me.
>
> I'm not sure that after the trip from Tanais through Gardarike and
Saxland
> to Scandinavia which had to last long years a tiny group of Vanir
(actually
> assimilated by Aesir) would keep their original ethnic burial
traditions.
> This could theoretically happen, but the probability was very low.
And
> "concentration" of Vanir graves in Scandinavia would be extremely
small
> anyway. So we may expect to find actually 2 main types of graves:
which
> existed "before Odins advent" and after this.
>
Sound reasoning, but consider this:
Everybody, who gets into contact with Egyptian culture (or is it
just "Egyptian design") becomes fascinated with it. This would
maintain interest in the Vani "cultural heritage" (and perhaps get
them some converts? note the succes of Egyptian religion in the Roman
empire).
Also
1) The Vani (if Colchideans) were originally Egyptians (presumably
Isis-worshippers?)
2) Tacitus tells us that to his amazement he found Isis-worshippers
among the northernmost Suebians in the 1st century CE (which was a
confederation of tribes that included those in present Denmark).
3) Albrectsen says that sacrificial bowls for Isis-worship, produced
in Pannonia, were found on Fyn from that period.
> Are wooden coffins and wooden sarcophagi the same? I guess - not. I
think
> coffins are to be made of wooden boards, but sarcophagi - of a
whole trunk
> of a tree (or at least every wall of a sarcophagus is made of
thick wooden
> blocks). Unfortunately, Lordkipanidze gives no details of
sarcophagi from
> Vani. However one can see such a real sarcophagus made of a huge
larch trunk
> in the Hermitage. It was found at Pazyryk (Altai) and belongs to the
> Siberian Scythian culture.
> (So I think that wooden sarcophagi from Vani could also be a result
of the
> steppe nomads influence like horse burials).
Try this:
http://www.holstebro-museum.dk
then press:
Udstillinger
then press:
Den sjældne plankekiste

The text advises that this is a very rare find, because of prevailing
climatic and geological preservation conditions in Denmark. Perhaps
that also answers your question about mummification; it would take a
very good mummifier to make anything that lasted here.


But the most interesting fact
> is that Pazyryk sarcophagus contained a mummy (I must say that the
quality
> of mummification is actually as high as in Egyptian mummies). When
looking
> at it I recollect a fragment from The Ynglinga Saga:
> " They [Vanir]
> took Mime, therefore, and beheaded him, and sent his head to the
> Asaland people. Odin took the head, smeared it with herbs so
> that it should not rot, and sang incantations over it. Thereby
> he gave it the power that it spoke to him, and discovered to him
> many secrets."
>
> So I'd like to ask :
> What kind of "wooden coffins" are found in Scandinavian Iron Age
burials?
See above. But I'll come back to it.
> Are there any hints of mummification in the richest graves?
Answer coming up.
> In which else ancient cultures (besides Egypt and East-Iranian
nomads) can
> be found mummification traditions?
I believe I saw on TV that the Masai(?, or some other Nilotic people)
practised mummification.

>
> Alexander

Torsten






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