Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names

Sorry, I meant to say, "as one of thirteen peoples". The
version of the list I've seen includes the following
ethnonyms: Avgar, Sabir, Burgar, Alan, Kurtargar, Avar,
Hasar, Dirmar, Sirurgur, Bagrasir, Kulas, Abdel and
Hephtalit. The Ephthalites (a.k.a. the Hephthalites or White
Huns) are somewhat enigmatic. There are various theories
about their ethnic and linguistic position (Turkic?), though
there may have been a number of Sakas among their upper
class at one time or another.

I've never heard of <-mar> as an Iranian ethnonymic suffix.
Any examples?

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names


>
> --- Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > Pseudo-Zachariah lists the Dirmar together with
> > thirteen other "peoples", some of whom are
> > well-known Turkic or North Caucasian ethnoi. As far
> > as I can see, among the peoples on the list only the
> > Alans are unquestionably Iranian-speaking.
>
> *****GK: My source for the list was M.I. Artamonov,
> Istoriia Khazar, Leningrad 1962, pp. 83-84. He seem to
> give 13 names only, and does not mention the Alans.
> BTW the "Ephtalits" of the list might also be
> Iranian-speakers?****
>
> (PG)The
> > source does not say or imply that the Dirmar were
> > "the main Iranic tribal group of the Don to Volga
> > steppe"; linguistically, they may well have been
> > Turkic.
>
> *****GK: Sources rarely give that kind of information.
> Hence the need for interpretation. As a non-linguist I
> have to rely on others for bits and pieces of
> information. J.H. Maenchen-Helfen, "The World of the
> Huns" 1973, p. 453 note 62, mentions that "-mar" was
> an Iranic suffix meaning "people". Hence Dir-mar.
> Which does not mean they might not have been bilingual
> given the circumstances of the time.*****