Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names

Pseudo-Zachariah lists the Dirmar together with thirteen other "peoples", some of whom are well-known Turkic or North Caucasian ethnoi. As far as I can see, among the peoples on the list only the Alans are unquestionably Iranian-speaking. The source does not say or imply that the Dirmar were "the main Iranic tribal group of the Don to Volga steppe"; linguistically, they may well have been Turkic.

What makes me wary of your interpretation is that whereas Dirmar is a hapax legomenon and we know nothing of substance about the name or the people so called, Askold and Dir are perfectly plausible Norse personal names (e.g. Askaldr [or Hóskuldr?], Dýri, cf. OE De:or). Whatever its historical referents, the _name_ Dir is more likely of Scandinavian origin than related to <Dirmar>.

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:41 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Scythian tribal names

*****GK: As far as I know they are only mentioned in two contexts, one certain, the other speculative. The certain context is a mid-6th c. list of Don-Volga steppe peoples found in a Syrian source (pseudo-Zacharias). The speculative context I developed a few years ago through microanalysis of the Nestor Chronicle. I concluded that a case could be made that the constant pairing of the two rulers of Kyiv (Kiev) mentioned there as "boyars of Rurik", to wit, Askold and Dyr (Askold i Dir --> Askolt-i-Dir(t), killed by Oleg on the Ugrian Hill, might represent not so much an earlier Norse presence, as a Khazar imperial one. That's actually the background of my queries about Turkic and/or Iranic "i". I'm reasonably certain about the historical and archaeological evidence, less so about the linguistic one. "Askol" was a Turkic title meaning "ruler of the (western) borderland", which seemed rather appropriate in the case of mid-9th century Kyiv. The Nestor Chronicle locates "Dir's tomb" in an area of the old city where archaeological excavations have discovered burials according to the Zoroastrian rite of West Khazaria I mentioned in a separate post. My assumption was that some of the Dir (or Dirmar) had been sent to the Kyivan outpost by the Kagan-Bek of Itil. I published an article containing this suggestion in The Ukrainian Quarterly (NY) 2000, entitled "The mystery of Kyiv's original Rus'". I didn't develop any theories about the later fate of the Dirmar. Their Donetz settlements were destroyed by the Pechenegs, and their remnants incorporated into the P. and successor Hordes. I suppose they were eventually Turkicized.*****