--- In cybalist@..., "William P. Reaves" <beowulf@...> wrote:
> Hej,
>
> Personally I think that by Isis in Germania, Freyja is meant. She
and Isis
> have a common myth, both are said to wander in search of their
beloved, in
> tears as they travel. Both are prominent myths of the respective
> goddesses.That alone would be enough for Tacitus to interpret
Freyja as
> Isis.
>
> As for the light warship, we see that Freyja's brother possesses
> Skidbladnir, a ship that can hold all of the gods fully armed, yet
is small
> enough that it can be folded like a napkin and carried in the pocket
> (Grimnismal).
>
> Her brother Frey too is said to possess the boar Gullinbursti made
for him
> by dwarves. We see that Freyja too possesses such a boar,
Hlidsvini, made
> for her by the dwarves Dainn and Nabbi according to the Eddic poem
> Hyndluljod. Thus the transference or the sharing of the "light
warship" by
> her is explainable.
>
> Such foldable ships were also supposedly found in graves, although
I cannot
> recall if this is true or not. Although it is common knowledge that
ships
> are prominent in grave goods and in rock carvings throughout the
pagan
> period in Scandinavia.
>
> Wassail, William
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Some of the Suebi also make sacrifices to Isis. Of where the
cause and
> origin of this foreign cult is, I have figured out very little,
except that
> her image, shaped in the Liburnan fashion(?)/in the fashion of a
Liburna(?)
> points to a religion coming from the outside."
>
> > What is 'liburnae' here? My dictionary says: 'liburna' "light,
fast-
> sailing warship;
> > Can anybody help me out here?
>
> >I suppose this means we can take him on his word, that this is
actually an
> Isis cult? Anyway, if a "native" Germanic goddess is meant here,
who is it?
>
>
>
>
> >It might be that Tacitus did not have the true name of the
Suebian
> goddess, and recorded one that equated to Isis, who was basically
one of the
> 'Great Mother' goddesses. Why he chose to identify Isis from
> this large group is curious, though.
>
>
More Isis in Germania stuff
Since we know that the As people eventually went to Pannonia
(Hungary), in order to believe Snorri's account of the As people
entering Denmark (and later the rest of Scandinavia) we should look
for finds that bind Denmark to Pannonia at that time.
There are such finds. They also directly corroborate Tacitus' claim
(Germania, 9, 1) that there was an Isis cult among the northern Suebi
tribes at his time, without recourse to seeing that as an
Interpretatio Romana of a native goddess.
from:
Erling Albrechtsen
Fynske Jernaldergrave II: Ældre Romersk Jernalder, Einar Munksgaard,
1956
[Iron Age Graves from Fyn: Early Roman Iron Age]
V. The Types of Find Objects
C. Imported Objects
Sacrificial bowls (paterae)
"Under the designation sacrificial bowls with handles A. Radnóti in
his well-known work on the Roman bronze bowls in Pannonia (A.
Radnóti: Die römischen Bronzegefässe von Pannonien, p. 81) describes
a numerous group of wide bowls, with characteristic low form and
soldered-on handle. According to Radnóti the form is originally
Alexandrine, but in Augustean time the production is taken over in
Italy, and the wares are then rapidly spread in the Northern Roman
provinces. In Pannonia these bowls seem to have been used in
connection with the Isis cult.
Radnóti's remark, that the sacrificial bowls are unknown outside the
borders of the Roman Empire, does not quite hold true. He mentions
himself 2 fragments from Bohemia (depicted Pic^, Urnengräber, Taf.
LXV, 6, LXVI, 3, from Dobr^ricow Pic^hora [sic]; 1st century CE).
Eggers counts l0 examples (Der römische Import, p. 174, Beilage 66)
from Germania Libera, the two northernmost from Hagenow and Rondsen.
Further on Nordic territory two handles for such bowls, both found on
Fyn (mentioned by Klindt-Jensen, Foreign Influences, p. 221 as
casseroles of his type V). One, rendered as T 23i, is from Højby mark
(Worsaae, Nordiske Oldsager, fig. 306, Engelhardt, Nydam, p. 55, no
18. Nat. mus. MMCCXXIV.) ... The grip ends in a ram's head. The
provenance is not quite secure, since the piece was "found alone,
some ells from the other objects of the find", among which were the
berlock T 23j, just as the other objects of the find from the 2nd
century. Along with the bowls, the handles of which end with a ram's
head, occurs another Pannonian form with the shaft ending in a dog's
head (Radnóti, op. c., p. 89). Both types belong with respect to
their origin together and are both at the same time present in
Pompeii. In Pannonia also occur many pieces with makeshift handles,
presumably added by local craftsmen, when the older handle was broken
off. As a later provincial product of this type must probably the
second Fyn piece be seen. It was taken up at Espe(81), reproduced T
11 d after a working sketch (C 1318, National Museum, Copenhagen).
The piece is more slender than the Højby item, approx. 9 cm long and
ends in a dog's head with open jaws. On the much worn bar are seen
traces after a rifling across, further, besides that only round
grooves and dotted diagonal lines. Also for this piece the
circumstances around the find are unclear. In the National museum it
has been protocolled with items from the Espe find, but is registered
as found at the same place 10 years before the other items.
Radnóti places the prime period of the Pannonian bowls at the 1st
century [CE]. Still in the 2nd century they are used some. The
production is not taken up in the Western Roman provinces. The form
is therefore eastern (Radnóti, op. c. p. 92) and must therefore
probably have reached Denmark along the Odra or the Wistula, possibly
the Elbe via Bohemia."
One might interpret this as follows: When Pannonia was made a Roman
province under Augustus it was garrisoned with troops that in part
were Isis worshipers. They set up production in Pannonia of bowls of
Alexandrine model. From there the bowls were spread to the northern
Roman provinces and Germania Libera. But a question remains: if there
was a market for the bowls in these places, why didn't someone start
a production there, as happened with so many other types of objects?
Was the production in Pannonia actually pre-Roman, and did the As
people bring the Isis sacrificial bowls with them to Gallia and
Germania Libra? Don't forget that Tacitus (Germania, 28,3; 43,1)
places the Osi, a Pannonian-speaking peoople, among the Germani, and
wonders if they have migrated from Pannonia.
Torsten