Re: [tied] Old Rus' of the many "nationes"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sergejus Tarasovas" <S.Tarasovas@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Old Rus' of the many "nationes"


> > [Alexander]
> > I apologize in advance, if my question looks too naive.
> >
> > Can not Dnieper/Danaper/Dnepr/Dnipro etc. be hydronymes which
> descend from the _Baltic_ form of the river name consisting of 2
> parts: Duno~jus + East-Baltic form of the word "water, river"
> (something like *apa or *opa ?) ?
> > Perhaps, the final "-r" could appear for the first time in the
> Germanic (Gothic) version and then spread widely as the most
> prestigious form of the word?
> >
> > Alexander
>
> The whole case is extremely problematic.
>
> Hydronyms like Lith. Duno~jus, Duna~jus are not uncommon, cf. also
> appellatives Lith. duno~jus, duna~jus, donajus, danojus, dojone.lis,
> du_nave.lis etc, Latv. dun,uva with general meaning 'water body; a
> water in some form as a lanscape's element', hardly explainable as
> just a borrowing from Slavic *DunajI/DunavI 'Danube'. The latter is
> traditionally considered a borrowing from Gothic (unattested)
> *Do:nawi < (?) some Celtic form, attested as Da:nuvius in Latin. If
> the latter is true, Baltic forms are hardly directly related to the
> Danube-hydronym.

[A.]
IFAIK, the stem of this word is common IE, not a Celtic innovation. So we
may expect to find reflexes of it in Balto-Slavic as well. No need to
explain everything as borrowings.

BTW, in Northern Russian dialects "dunaj" means "brook, small stream".
In the basin of Dnieper there are a lot of rivers with names Dunaets and
Dunavets.
Besides, Dunai is presented in Russian folklore too, as a special river,
often without binding with any historical events.

>
> The Dnieper is first mentioned in a Greek source in the form
> Da'napris.

[A.]
Do you mean Periplus Ponti Euxini? Unfortunately I know almost nothing about
this source. In which context Danapris was mentioned there?

> Slavic *DUne^prU hints the first and second vowels
> differed in quality: Slavic /U/ < (laxed short)/a/ is attested in
> borrowings, cf. ORus LUtIgala < *Latga`la: , /e^/ may be < (open
> front) /AE/. Usually something Iranian is offered as a source, the
> first component being eventually from *da:nu- 'stream'. If we suppose
> the form was Baltic and reconstruct it as *Dane:pr- or *Danja:pr-, we
> will get a form that seemes unexplainable on the Baltic ground to me.
> We can ignore the Greek form and the -r-, suppose the first component
> was Baltic *dun- (consider also Slavic *Dvina, probably of Baltic
> origin, though the Balts now call it <*Daugwa: 'mighty'), and then
> offer something like *Dun-j-a:p- (involving West_ Baltic *ap- and
> postulating its unattested lenghtened grade, the latter and *-j- to
> account for Slavic *e^) or just *Dun-ap- (and leave e^ unexplained).
> We can also... As you see, all this is extremely speculative.
>

[A.]
Yes, I see. Thank you for the detailed explanations.
Is there essentially more plausible etymology for this hydronyme?
(I know the *Danu-apara - "the river behind" proposal, but guess that this
could satisfy a poet, not a linguist)

Alexander