Re: [tied] Ethnocentrism was Re: Baltic *gud3- (message 8073)

--- Sergejus Tarasovas <S.Tarasovas@...>
wrote:

> > *****GK: And what matter would that be? The
> English
> > tradition is not cast in stone. What's wrong in
> > distinguishing "Old Ukrainian" from "Old Russian"
> or
> > "Old Ukrainians" from "Old Russians"? Or "Old
> > Belarusans" for that matter? What's your line? To
> > continue confusing everything under the "Russian"
> > label? Sounds a tad ethnocentric to me (:=))****
>
> (ST)This is getting ridiculous. I wonder how you

define

> these terms,
> especially the dirfference between Old Russians and
> Old Ukrainians in
> the Primary Chronicle's times?

*****GK: Fair enough. I'll post something on this in a
bit. You could try getting my "Rus' and Ukraine in
mediaeval times" via interlibrary loan or from
amazon.com. It's a small item but touches on all the
essentials. It was reviewed in "Slavic Review" by
Prof. Janet Martin.*****

>
>
>(ST) Here's a quote from message #10329:
>
> *****GK: What about a simpler route:
> 1. The "summons cry" emerges as "kos'" at a time
> when
> the term for "horse" for the population in question
> is
> still "ekwos". It doesn't seem far fetched to
> suppose
> that a cry is simplified in this way.
> 2. This "cry" is maintained even as the other
> language
> shifts occur.[analogy: the mysterious "tsur (tobi)
> pek" expression in Ukr. I don't know if it exists in
> other Slavic languages. It may. You tell me]

=====GK: Well excuse me, but I'm asking about an
expression: "tsur Tobi pek", not just about the word
"tsur". And even then, with respect to that
expression, not simply the word "tsur", I do not
assert that it does not exist in other languages, and
ask for information about this. Clear enough? I would
have thought so...Far from exhibiting chauvinism my
query demonstrates apologetic potential
ignorance*****=====

> 3. This cry remains in the vocabulary of some groups
> (but is lost in that of others) and eventually
> produces some derivatives based on "kos'"*****
>
> (ST)It's not fair to play possum. You understand

what I

> mean perfectly
> well. You cited the tsur-expression as an instance
> of a probable
> unique development to support another Ukrainian
> unique development -
> reflecting PIE horse-word as <kos'>.

*****GK: Yes. The tsur expression. You've got that
right. But subsequent discussion (with no accusations
such as yours) clarified this to everyone's
satisfaction. At least I thought it did. And it was
further demonstrated to me by linguists I respect that
this theory about "kos'" (which I borrowed from
Kul'baka [who's obviously a better archaeologist than
linguist] couldn't hold water. So I dropped it.*****

(ST)Your consistent

> fight against
> English proper names of Russian origin is of course
> not ethnocentric,

*****GK: I am not fighting against anyone, just using
my own terminology. Did I object to your or other
people's use of "Kiev", "Old Russian", "Dnieper" et
sim.? No I did not. Why can't you show the same
tolerance?*****

>(ST) but aggressive selling of <Dnipro> for the

Dnieper

> is a bit unfair -
> what about the non-Ukrainian part of the river?

****GK: I have no objection at all (how could I?) as
to the river being called "Dnieper" "Dnepr" (I don't
know if the Belarusans have their own variant). Heck
you can even call it "Dnepr" for the Ukrainian part of
the river. Just don't object to my calling it the
Dnipro. OK? Maybe I should call it by its alternative
poetic name "Slavutych" (closer to Baltic that
one)(:=))*****

>(ST) Petrov was a #1
> comparativist, only the Soviet (resp. Russian?)
> regime didn't let him
> ... Another misunderstanding of mine?

> ******GK:Well I like most of Petrov. I don't really

care if you don't. Where he goes wrong I don't follow
him. I've already mentioned that the description of
his qualifications came from the inside cover of his
publications. And as far as I remember my statement
about the Soviet regime concerned the totality of
Ukrainian humanistics not Petrov specifically. The big
constraint was a Resolution of 1954 by the CC of the
CPSU that there was such a thing as an "Old Rus'
Nation" prior to the 15th-16th cs. and anyone who
thought or taught otherwise lost their job at best or
wound up in a concentration camp (gulag) or
psychiatric facility at worst.****

>(ST) I realize that my English is poor, but not to an
> extent that others
> on the list feel uncomfortable about it. At least
> you're the first to
> complain. I'll try to read your messages twice from
> now on.

*****GK: Thank you. I have no complaints about your
English. Just about your unfounded accusations.*****

>
> Sergei
>
>

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