Re: [tied] Re: partes tres (Qu>P)

a) Is there any possibility to trace a isogloss between p-Celtic, p-Italic
and Aeolic Greek ? Is this could be a trait of a extinct people? We can
include Romanian in this group (qu>p). An expanding wave spreading from
central Europe?

b) Italo-Celtic had the typical trait p-kW>kW-kW (cf. quercus, quinque,
coquo), but perhaps this trait is present in Korkyra island (Korkyra/Kerkyra
< *kWerkWu- <*perkWu "island of oaks"?). Is this a trace of an Italo-Celtic
people in Western Balkans?

c) What's the meaning of suffix -tania in Aquitania, Lusitania, Mauretania,
Tingitania?

----- Original Message -----
From: <tgpedersen@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:28 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: partes tres


> --- In cybalist@..., "Dr. Antonio Sciarretta" <sciarretta@...>
> wrote:
> > At 12:54 05.11.2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> > > What language did the inhabitants of Caesar's "partes tres",
> > >specifically Galli and Belgae, speak?
> >
> > I can say that in Belgica we find a lot of clearly Gall (then p-
> Celtic)
> > place-names, with characteristic II terms such as -durum 'fortress'
> > (Batavodurum < etn. Batavi, Dividurum < prob. gall. 'divine, god' <
> celt.
> > *deiuo-s, Ganodurum), -magus 'field' (Borbetomagus < prob.
> gall. 'bubbling'
> > < *bher-u-, cfr. lat. ferveo, Neomagus < gall. *novios 'new' ,
> Ratomagus <
> > gall. 'fence' < celt. *ratis), -dunum 'castle' (Lugdunum), -
> briva 'bridge'
> > (Samarobriva).
> > But otherwise, we can find also toponyms that maybe could be
> related to
> > Germanic. For example, what do you think about Mocontiacum < IE
> *muk-
> > 'marsh', cfr. latv. muka 'id.' with *u > *au (in Germanic) > *o ?
> > And about Mosa fl. < IE *mus- 'moss', cfr. lith. musos, ohg. mos,
> oicel.
> > mosi- 'id.', with the same phonetic feature ?
> > This could mean that Belgica was considered a land with mixed
> people,
> > resulted from the (partial) fusion of Celtic and Germanic speakers.
> > But in the same region we find at least one trace of a non-Celtic,
> > non-Germanic language in the toponymy: it is the name of Tabula
> fl., if we
> > etymologise it from the root *(s)tebh- 'stone' (and then, 'river
> with
> > stones'), cfr. opr. Stabis, lyd. Taba, sabine Tebae, *pelasg.
> Thebai. This
> > root would appear with /o/ both in Celtic and Germanic languages,
> so it
> > should be related to the 'alteuropaeisch' stratum, considered more
> ancient
> > than the historical languages known.
> >
> > >Any connection with the p/q
> > >division? (Yes, I looked at the backlog, but the question didn't
> seem
> > >to be resolved then?)
>
>
> Mixed p-Celtic/Germanic from our standpoint, yes. Another way of
> describing it would be as a branch related to both that went extinct?
>
> These are the things that puzzle me:
>
> 1: They came "a Germanis", before the Cimbrian invasion.
>
> 2: They pushed out some Galli, which we could conveniently identify
> with q-Celts (I have no evidence for this; please don't kill me!
> Also, this assumption is not crucial).
>
> 2: At Caesar's time, they are fighting the Germani continually.
>
> 3: Judging from geography, they must be the ones who have connections
> in Britannia, or rather the coast thereof, which would fit with them
> being p-Celtic.
>
> Which would fit rather nicely with a language-shift from Celtic to
> Germanic in Germania around Caesar's time? The Germanic element in
> Belgic name-stuff could then be explained as conservatism in
> the "Belgic branch"?
>
> Torsten
>
>
>
>
>
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