Re: partes tres

--- In cybalist@..., "Dr. Antonio Sciarretta" <sciarretta@...>
wrote:

> At 12:54 05.11.2001 +0000, you wrote:
>
> > What language did the inhabitants of Caesar's "partes tres",
> >specifically Galli and Belgae, speak?
>
> I can say that in Belgica we find a lot of clearly Gall (then p-

Celtic)

> place-names, with characteristic II terms such as -durum 'fortress'
> (Batavodurum < etn. Batavi, Dividurum < prob. gall. 'divine, god' <

celt.

> *deiuo-s, Ganodurum), -magus 'field' (Borbetomagus < prob.

gall. 'bubbling'

> < *bher-u-, cfr. lat. ferveo, Neomagus < gall. *novios 'new' ,

Ratomagus <

> gall. 'fence' < celt. *ratis), -dunum 'castle' (Lugdunum), -

briva 'bridge'

> (Samarobriva).
> But otherwise, we can find also toponyms that maybe could be

related to

> Germanic. For example, what do you think about Mocontiacum < IE

*muk-

> 'marsh', cfr. latv. muka 'id.' with *u > *au (in Germanic) > *o ?
> And about Mosa fl. < IE *mus- 'moss', cfr. lith. musos, ohg. mos,

oicel.

> mosi- 'id.', with the same phonetic feature ?
> This could mean that Belgica was considered a land with mixed

people,

> resulted from the (partial) fusion of Celtic and Germanic speakers.
> But in the same region we find at least one trace of a non-Celtic,
> non-Germanic language in the toponymy: it is the name of Tabula

fl., if we

> etymologise it from the root *(s)tebh- 'stone' (and then, 'river

with

> stones'), cfr. opr. Stabis, lyd. Taba, sabine Tebae, *pelasg.

Thebai. This

> root would appear with /o/ both in Celtic and Germanic languages,

so it

> should be related to the 'alteuropaeisch' stratum, considered more

ancient

> than the historical languages known.
>
> >Any connection with the p/q
> >division? (Yes, I looked at the backlog, but the question didn't

seem

> >to be resolved then?)

Mixed p-Celtic/Germanic from our standpoint, yes. Another way of
describing it would be as a branch related to both that went extinct?

These are the things that puzzle me:

1: They came "a Germanis", before the Cimbrian invasion.

2: They pushed out some Galli, which we could conveniently identify
with q-Celts (I have no evidence for this; please don't kill me!
Also, this assumption is not crucial).

2: At Caesar's time, they are fighting the Germani continually.

3: Judging from geography, they must be the ones who have connections
in Britannia, or rather the coast thereof, which would fit with them
being p-Celtic.

Which would fit rather nicely with a language-shift from Celtic to
Germanic in Germania around Caesar's time? The Germanic element in
Belgic name-stuff could then be explained as conservatism in
the "Belgic branch"?

Torsten