--- Christopher Gwinn <
sonno3@...> wrote:
>
> GK: Viktor
> Petrov
> > (no mean linguist) exploded the myth of Scythian
> > Iranism a generation ago, demonstrating that it
> was a
> > distinct East European satem language with
> multiple
> > affinities.
>
> Ch.G.:That is absolutely ridiculous. Apparently no
one has
> been convinced
> by Petroc, btw,
****GK: It's Petrov not Petroc (he wasn't a Celt as
far as I know). Have you read his books? (just a
rhetorical question). His major point is that most of
Abayev's "Ossetian" oriented etymologies can be
explained just as well if not better by reference to
Baltic data, and a great many that seemed obscure or
uncertain to Abayev are clarified in the same manner.
Petrov studied the extant epigraphic evidence from
the "Greek" polises of the northern Black Sea coast
which indicated that Scythian was also very close to
Thracian (a point which could have been hypothesized
from an analysis of the Greek Pontic version of the
Scythian Foundation Legend).As I mentioned in an
earlier post I don't have Petrov's major work handy
(having read it a long time ago) ["Skify. Mova i
etnos."1972). But his "Etnogeneza Slovyan" ("Slavic
Ethnogenesis")has a few pertinent items. Since you
probably can't read Ukrainian, here's a translation of
a Petrovian footnote on the Scythian River Mother
Goddess API (SE, p.153, n2: "Of all Indo-European
languages the word API is closest to the Baltic
lexicon. Cf. OlPr "APE" ("river": Elbing glossary,62);
Lith., Latv. "UPE". Compare Hitt. "HAP" "river"
"stream". In Indo-Iranian languages: Sanskr. "APAH",
Avest. "AFS" ="water", Ossetian "ARF"= "deep"
"deepness". Abayev thinks this possibly derives from
"AP-RA" "AP" = "water". Contrary to the widespread
view that the Scythian language was Iranic, the name
of the Mother of the Scythians, both phonetically, and
as to meaning, is closer to Balt. "APE" and Hitt.
"HAP"= "river", than to Avest. "AFS"= "water" or
Osseticc "ARF" = "deep", since in the Ossetian
language the word "AP-" ="water" is missing altogether
and must be reconstructed as an assumption." === And
here's another one about the Scythian Goddess "TABITI"
(SE, p. 154): "Scythian TABITI" meant "she who is the
best" "she who is the most accomplished" "she who is
the highest" (cpre Lith. "TOBULAS"= "accomplished",
"TOBULETI" = "to make one's self better, more
accomplished", "TOBULYBE" = "accomplishment,
superiority". According to E. Fraenkel (Litauisches
Etymologisches Woerterbuch, II, 1105) the word
"TOBULAS" "has no etymology" and is without close
analogies in other Indo-European languages: which
testifies to the deep archaism of this Balto-Scythian
name."******
as the overwhelming concensus
> (except amongst a
> handful of kooks of the type
******GK: Are you suggesting Petrov is (was) a kook?
Just because something you don't seem to know a great
deal about conflicts with your acquired knowledge
doesn't automatically qualify it for such intemperate
evaluations. This says much more about you than about
Petrov. More comments about your "learning"
below.*****
that think the
> Scythians were the lost
> tribe of Israel) is that Scythians spoke an Iranian
> dialect -
*****GK: There was also once an "overwhelming
consensus" that the world was flat. BTW almost
everyone agrees that the "Royal Scythians" were in
fact of steppe Iranic origin. But while they
constituted the ruling aristocracy of the Scythian
polity (at least until 339 BC and their catastrophic
defeat and near annihilation at the hand of Philip of
Macedon), they were very much a minority of the
population, and they "took" from the locals (in terms
of culture) as much as they gave. How long they
retained their putative north Iranic speech in its
pristine purity is a good question. By the time of
Herodotus they no longer understood the Sarmatians all
that well. The Scythian Foundation Legend is an
excellent indicator of their relatively quick fusion
with the ethna which were in place when they
arrived.*****
and in
> fact the best results in providing etymologies for
> Scythian
> onomastics comes from comparing the names to other
> Iranian dialects.
*****GK: Read Petrov for better results.(:=)).*****
> Ch. G.:It is well known and widely accepted that the
Alans
> were cultural
> descendants of the Scythians
*****GK: The Alans were not descendants of the
Scythians. They arrived at the borders of Europe some
700 years after the "Royal" Scythians. Their culture
was also rather different. Their tamgas and
polychromic jewellery style (imitated by the Goths)
had no antecedent in Scythian culture. Some scholars
(not all) have linked them to Herodotus' "Issedones"
(presumably because they were also called "Yassy" in
mediaeval times).I don't think you know very much
about this either.*****
- and modern day
> descendants of the
> Alans now live in Ossetia - and guess what? Their
> language is Iranian.
*****GK: A remarkable discovery! You've got at least
this right. And they call themselves "Iron" too.******
>
>
> > And if Herodotus says that "arima" meant
> > "one"(or some equivalent thereof)in Scythian, then
> I
> > must believe him, other things being equal (and
> they
> > haven't yet been shown not to be).==I would still,
> > however, like to read what you have to say about
> > AUKHATA, if and when you have the time.******
>
>
> Why believe Herodotus? It's not likely that he had
> any real command
> of Scythian. Ancient authors were notorious for
> falsely folk-
> etymologizing names that they didn't understand -
> there is no reason
> to accept Herodotus over modern scientific analysis.
*****GK: The point is that many of Herodotus' other
Scythian words have been demonstrably shown by modern
scientific analysis to be adequately etymologized. And
the issue here was rather whether to accept Herodotus
or some totally new concoction "arima-aspa" which has
no links at all to what Herodotus was recounting.*****
>
> - Chris Gwinn
>
>
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