Re: [tied] Re: Greek Gods (ex-Odin the Immigrant?)

Other IE mythologies like Germanic, Indian or Avestan had a IE core that was
modificated by influence by non-IE substrata and adstrata. But Greek
mythology seems to be the opposite. I think he had a non-IE core,
modificated by weak traits of IE superstratum. The core seems to be a
complex mix of Semitic, Anatolian and the enigmatic "Pelasgian".
So, the IE divine pantheon of Sky-father and his children didnt substitute
the Semitic pantheon (the eternal quarrelling of El's children: brothers
against brothers) and the Mesopotamian pantheon - via Anatolia - (a violent
succession of generations : Ouranos-Kronos-Zeus / Alalush-Kumarpish-Teshub /
Tiamat against Enlil).

So, it's so hard to fit IE structures in Greek mythology. Additionally I
think there was a mix of different IE branches entering Greece. So, Greek
mythology is a mosaic of different patterns of fusions and syncretisms.

Joao SL
Rio

----- Original Message -----
From: <MrCaws@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 7:10 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Odin the Immigrant?


> --- In cybalist@..., "João S. Lopes Filho" <jodan99@...> wrote:
> > The relation of Jupiter-Mars-Quirinus to Odin-Thor-Freyr was
> intensely
> > studied by Georges Dumezil.
> > The Jurist Sovereign lost his hands (Tyr, Nuada, Mucius Scaevola),
> while the
> > Terrible Sovereign lost one of his eyes (Odinn , Lugh, Horatius
> Cocles).
> > Mucius and Cocles were characters in the war between Rome and
> Etruria.
> > Mucius burn his hand himself to swear (falsely) that Romans will
> not attack
> > (cf. Tyr and Fenrir). Cocles, an one-eyed warrior, stopped the
> Etruscan army
> > on a bridge.
> >
> > I think this could be an explanation of evolution of Germanic
> patheon
> >
> > Dyeus P@... > *Tiuz (Sky Father) - all-father (Latin Jupiter,
> Greek Zeus,
> > Indian Dyauh-Kas^yapa, Irish Dagde Ollathair)
> > ? > *Saxsanautaz (Jurist Sovereign) - lawgiver god (Latin Dius
> Fidius -
> > Jupiter's epithet-, Indian Mitra, Irish Nuada)
> > Wa:tNnos > *Wo:th@... (Terrible Sovereign) - magic god (Latin
> Jupiter
> > Stator, Indian Varuna)
> > Tn@... > *Thunraz (Storm-God) - king of gods, storm god (Latin
> Jupiter
> > Tonans, Indian Indra)
> > We:yus > ? (Wind-God) - strong, huge, violent god (Greek Poseidon,
> Indian
> > Va:yu)
>
>
>
>
> > Tiuz - father of Saxsanautaz, Wo:th@..., Thunraz and Wind-god
> >
> > -------------------------------
> > Tiuz was merged to Saxsanautaz. (Perhaps Tyr < *Ti:waz < *Deiwos).
> Fusion of
> > Sky-God and Jurist god is also possible in Lithuanian Deivas. If
> Tyr,Tiu <
> > *Ti:waz instead of Tiuz, we can simply assume that Wothnaz aborsbed
> *Tiuz,
> > and that *Saxsanautaz became *Ti:waz.
> >
> > Wo:th@... absorbed the all-father role of Tiuz and royal role of
> Thun@...
> > (allfather + magic + king)
> > Thunraz was identified to Wind-God, but kept the atmospheric
> features and
> > the name of IE *Tn@... (strength + storm)
> >
> > Wo:thnaz - father of Tiuz-Saxsanautaz and Thunraz
>
>
> Very interesting! I think Odin and Dagda must be related. Besides
> from the all-father epithet, Dagda also has a reputation as a
> magician, wields a spear, and is known for his musical prowess(Which
> I associate with Odin's affinity for poetry).
>
> What I think is interesting is Dagda also is associated with corn and
> milk. This connection to corn, and cattle(via milk), makes him a
> deity of agriculture, fertility, cattle, music, and magic. I would
> think he would fit in the terrible soveirgn magic deity you
> mentioned.
> These attributes would also fit Hermes(Especially the older bearded
> phallic Hermes) or maybe Kronos. He is the father of the thunder god,
> after all. I'm still thinking about your other ideas.
>
> Cort Williams
>
>
>
>
>
> > > --- In cybalist@..., "William P. Reaves" <beowulf@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The case for Tyr as the Dyuas Pater of the Germanic tribes is
> based
> > > on
> > > > nothing more than etymology of the name. And the theory that the
> > > Germans had
> > > > an earlier god named *Tiu which was displaced by Odin is
> > > unfortunately still
> > > > current in many scholarly books.
> > > >
> > > > I tend to believe that if the Germanics had a god named *Tiu it
> was
> > > merely
> > > > Odin himself under an earlier name, rather than the god Tyr who
> was
> > > > displaced by the migrant Odin.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tyr is interesting, I want to learn more about him. I know
> Tuesday is
> > > named after Tyr. In Italian, Tuesday is Martedi.
> > > I also know one story about him: The gods wanted to bind the
> Fenris
> > > wolf, and finally made a chain strong enogh to hold him. They
> > > couldn't think of a way to catch him, though, so they decided
> instead
> > > to trick him. They told the wolf they only wanted to test the
> > > strength of the chain, and they would let him go after that. As
> proof
> > > of their sincerity, Tyr put his right hand in the wolf's mouth.
> The
> > > gods broke their word, and Tyr lost a hand.
> > > This seems similar to Odin sacrificing his eye for knowledge.
> Odin
> > > gives up one eye to know or see more, Tyr gives up his hand to
> make
> > > his word binding. I've read about a pricniple triad of Teutonic
> > > deities: Odin, Thor, and Tyr. Maybe this corresponds with the old
> > > Roman triad Quirinus, Jupiter, Mars? I'm still working on that
> idea.
> > >
> > > Cort Williams
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
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